[jlisenbe]

Great question. It would seem that the vaccine is perhaps not so effective as we had hoped. Perhaps Fauci is not so smart after all? Perhaps the Biden admin has not been effective? Perhaps the means of preventing the spread of the disease are not as effective as we were told as Tom's link above seems to illustrate? Perhaps we are just going to have to plow through this and accept that some deaths will occur? Perhaps science is not nearly so advanced as we have been told?

What are your thoughts?

We can discuss these things, but to question Tom's data is really foolish. He was clearly right. And yes, I realize that you have not done that. I am not referring to you. Perhaps surprisingly, I think your posts here have been very good. Did you expect me so say such a thing?

[Wondergirl]

Great question. It would seem that the vaccine is perhaps not so effective as we had hoped.

Is the vaccine the problem -- or something else? Why do we get a flu shot every year? Why isn't one enough, like for chicken pox or rubella?

[tomder55]

The flu of 1918 H1N1 so called Spanish flu was very deadly .It also mutated over and over again and never went away.It is now the seasonal flu . Every so often it becomes more severe as it combines with bird or swine flues . That happened in 1957, 1968 and 2009. Those pandemic events caused millions of deaths .

But this is the first time we have had so big a government overreaction.
SOME people get flu shots annually (about 52% in 2019) There are certainly no mandates to vax ,distance or mask for the annual flu .

The flu vax is about 45% effective . Some years more ;others less. Too early to gage the effectiveness of covid vax .Nobody knows for sure how many breakthrough cases there are .

[Wondergirl]

Yet the seasonal flu isn't always deadly -- only if it infects both the upper and lower respiratory tract, causing pneumonia, or challenges other medical conditions due to age or a weakened immune system.

[tomder55]

usually around 35,000 - 50,000 annually . Last year was less because everyone was taking extreme precautions for covid . American elderly are the least likely to get the flu but they are the most vulnerable . The flu vax prevented only 6,300 deaths 2019-2020 .
Past Seasons Estimated Influenza Disease Burden Averted by Vaccination | CDC

[jlisenbe]

One of my favorite movie lines comes from the old western Conagher. "None of us is going to get out of this thing alive." He was speaking of life. Perhaps we think too much about extended years and not enough about a life of meaning.

[Wondergirl]

There are more deaths in 2021 because of the new mutation delta (and, recently, omicron) plus the natural progression of the disease among the unvaccinated along with the refusal to force the unvaccinated to get the vaccine. When the government tries to save people, it's called "socialistic communism". Deaths in 2021 have been 95-99% among the unvaccinated. That should be proof of the value of vaccination.

[jlisenbe]

Then thank goodness for the Trump vaccine. I'm all for people getting vaxed.

Still, there's something a little fishy about those figures. Minnesota, for instance, is 62% vaxed but has a very high covid infection rate. Florida, on the other hand, is only at 61% and yet is among the lowest states in infection rate. I just have a funny feeling that there is more to this than meets the data.

[Wondergirl]

Infections are not deaths.

[tomder55]

Hybrid immunity gives greater protection than vaccination . Vaxed AND Hybrid immunity offers greatest protection . That is why I got vaxxed . My body my choice.

[jlisenbe]

Deaths last 7 days.

Minnesota. 256

Florida. 13

New York. 68% vaxed, 272 deaths the past 7 days.

There's more to it than just vaccinations.

[jlisenbe]

Good ole Mississippi. 47% vaxed and 30 deaths last seven days.

Louisiana. 49% vaxed and 51 deaths.

[jlisenbe]

Gotta mention one more. Only two states have zero deaths the past seven days. Oklahoma is one of them. Vax rate? 51%.

[talaniman]

No secret the dem cities/states have the denser population which is a huge factor in calculating cases and mortality rates. Conservatives would have us believe EVERYBODY has a natural immunity which isn't the case. That's what makes right wing spin a crock of crap. Even crybaby Tucker Carlson blasting mandates by Joe hypocritical since his boss has it's own mandate policy in place, and has for a longtime.

[Wondergirl]

Gotta mention one more. Only two states have zero deaths the past seven days. Oklahoma is one of them. Vax rate? 51%.

Have you ever been there? I have, once. Have avoided it ever since. Covid feels the same way.

[Athos]

What is missing in these offered stats of infections and deaths is that deaths occur far later then infections. To compare them on a weekly basis shows a basic misunderstanding how the pandemic works.

Infection leads to recovery OR sickness. Can take weeks.
Sickness leads to recovery OR hospitalization. Can take weeks.
Hospitalization leads to recovery OR ventilator. Can take weeks.
Ventilator leads to recovery or death. Can take weeks.

An infection may take months to end in death. The far better comparison is over a year's time to see the relation between infection and hospitalization/death.

The facts are that the unvaccinated represent roughly 95% of all deaths from COVID in the entire year of 2021. Deaths among the vaccinated are comparatively miniscule for the same time period.

What better argument to get vaccinated?

[jlisenbe]

The far better comparison is over a year's time to see the relation between infection and hospitalization/death.

That wasn't the comparison. The comparison was vax rate vs. deaths, or vax rate versus infections. I don't recall any attempt to establish a relationship between infections vs. deaths.

I think everyone here is in favor of people getting vaxed.

[Wondergirl]

I think everyone here is in favor of people getting vaxed.

But but but God will protect me!!!

[tomder55]

The Great Barrington Declaration – As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection.
Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice.
Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.
Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza.
As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e. the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity.
The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection.
Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals.
Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.

Great Barrington Declaration (gbdeclaration.org)

[tomder55]

What is missing in these offered stats of infections and deaths is that deaths occur far later then infections. To compare them on a weekly basis shows a basic misunderstanding how the pandemic works.

Infection leads to recovery OR sickness. Can take weeks.
Sickness leads to recovery OR hospitalization. Can take weeks.
Hospitalization leads to recovery OR ventilator. Can take weeks.
Ventilator leads to recovery or death. Can take weeks.

An infection may take months to end in death. The far better comparison is over a year's time to see the relation between infection and hospitalization/death.

The facts are that the unvaccinated represent roughly 95% of all deaths from COVID in the entire year of 2021. Deaths among the vaccinated are comparatively miniscule for the same time period.

What better argument to get vaccinated?

COVID-19 Infection Fatality Ratio is About 1.15%, (webmd.com)