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    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #21

    Jul 13, 2021, 05:16 PM
    Tom looks to business as usual, just get on with it, take a sick day if you are sick, infect others until the symptoms overwhelm you, vaccinate and take the risk. Tom, in case you don't know the name of this virus is SARS-Covid-19, it is a more virulent version of the flu we know and love so well which kills thousands each year and if left to run rampant will continue to do so with increasing ferocity as you have already experienced, but this version now infects the young as well as the old
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,816, Reputation: 5431
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    #22

    Jul 13, 2021, 05:34 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    How do line workers in factories all over the country deal with it ? How do grocery store workers deal with it ? How do hospital staff deal with it ? They put on their clothes and go do their job .
    No, the factory workers stayed home, and the factories stopped or at least slowed operations. Same with grocery stores, and prices went up as shelves became bare. Hospital staff are finally rebelling now that, as of today in the U.S., there are
    34,804,786 cases and 623,396 deaths.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #23

    Jul 13, 2021, 05:58 PM
    My factory remained open as did many essential operations ;and I worked in a state where the government ejaculated in anticipation of the prospects of doing draconian lockdowns .. Food was still processed and delivered .

    Here is how warped it all has become .
    The state of California in opposition to CDC guidelines will require vaccinated students and teachers to still wear masks .

    Why ? No not for any heath reasons . “At the outset of the new year, students should be able to walk into school without worrying about whether they will feel different or singled out for being vaccinated or unvaccinated,” California Health & Human Services Agency Secretary Dr. Mark Ghaly said. "Treating all kids the same will support a calm and supportive school environment.”

    These people are certifiably insane !
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #24

    Jul 13, 2021, 06:45 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    .
    These people are certifiably insane !
    You are certifiably insane. Have you never heard of solidarity, the wearing of masks is prescribed to stop the spread, if some don't wear masks it lessens the action, people feel they don't have to. Modify the requirement by all means but wear masks in a closed environment. Even if you are vaccinated you can still get it and spread it
    teacherjenn4's Avatar
    teacherjenn4 Posts: 4,005, Reputation: 468
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    #25

    Jul 13, 2021, 09:42 PM
    I came back to in-person learning (in the classroom) in February. I teach public school Kindergarten and my students were able to keep their masks on. We washed our hands frequently, did our best to social distance, and no cases of COVID-19. We reopen in early August. California is requiring masks. Am I upset? Honestly, whatever it takes to get the children in school is better than distance learning again. Obviously 4 and 5 year old children cannot be vaccinated at this time. So, we will all wear masks, again. Try teaching 30 littles online— (they take off their clothes, jump on their beds, and play with their toys). They did not learn to share, collaborate, or get enough personal attention online.
    If you aren’t a teacher, then you may not understand that we want to be with our students and we will do whatever it takes to be with them in the classroom. If masks are required, so be it.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #26

    Jul 13, 2021, 11:16 PM
    Yes school is good but there are wider issues, people mixing while drop off/pickup so maybe some children have to be taught to behave, essential lesson best taught in the home
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #27

    Jul 14, 2021, 02:15 AM
    You are certifiably insane. Have you never heard of solidarity, the wearing of masks is prescribed to stop the spread, if some don't wear masks it lessens the action, people feel they don't have to. Modify the requirement by all means but wear masks in a closed environment. Even if you are vaccinated you can still get it and spread it
    I'll repeat ..... the CDC guidelines say that the 'vaxed ' do not need to wear masks . The state of California must be anti-science .
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #28

    Jul 14, 2021, 05:14 AM
    Sometimes I think you are anti common sense
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,351, Reputation: 156
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    #29

    Jul 14, 2021, 05:26 AM
    The state of California in opposition to CDC guidelines will require vaccinated students and teachers to still wear masks .

    Why ? No not for any heath reasons . “At the outset of the new year, students should be able to walk into school without worrying about whether they will feel different or singled out for being vaccinated or unvaccinated,” California Health & Human Services Agency Secretary Dr. Mark Ghaly said. "Treating all kids the same will support a calm and supportive school environment.”

    These people are certifiably insane !
    It's all about feelings. They don't want any students to feel singled out which is par for the course in public schools. What's amazing to me is that school students are being vaccinated at all. The risk for the under 30 crowd is miniscule. Especially for young men, the health risks of the vaccine could very well outweigh any good done by getting it.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #30

    Jul 14, 2021, 06:05 AM
    common sense to some is nonsense to others . Using the phrase to attack opposing ideas is weak . What the buzz words mean is a justification for policies that aren't automatically popular .It assumes that it is a safe no brainer when in fact the issues are much more complicated and controversial . It is a trap that libs use frequently .

    In America it has been used frequently since Thomas Paine made a compelling argument for dissolution with the crown .Most usages since are vague ,nonspecific and a ruse to paint issues of great complexity and nuance into simplified arguments designed to pretend to align with the average person.
    teacherjenn4's Avatar
    teacherjenn4 Posts: 4,005, Reputation: 468
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    #31

    Jul 14, 2021, 06:17 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    Yes school is good but there are wider issues, people mixing while drop off/pickup so maybe some children have to be taught to behave, essential lesson best taught in the home
    Parents aren’t allowed out of their cars to drop off and pick up their students. Yes, I know that parents should be teaching many things at home, but we have so many only children in Kindergarten. There’s no one to share with until they come to school. Others may have an infant sibling. Kindergarten is crucial for future learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I'll repeat ..... the CDC guidelines say that the 'vaxed ' do not need to wear masks . The state of California must be anti-science .
    None of my students have vaccines, so there’s no issue with solidarity. Again, California may say masks in schools for whatever reason they come up with. If we can open schools, we will wear masks.
    InfoJunkie4Life's Avatar
    InfoJunkie4Life Posts: 1,410, Reputation: 81
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    #32

    Jul 14, 2021, 06:30 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by teacherjenn4
    I came back to in-person learning (in the classroom) in February. I teach public school Kindergarten and my students were able to keep their masks on. We washed our hands frequently, did our best to social distance, and no cases of COVID-19. We reopen in early August. California is requiring masks. Am I upset? Honestly, whatever it takes to get the children in school is better than distance learning again. Obviously 4 and 5 year old children cannot be vaccinated at this time. So, we will all wear masks, again. Try teaching 30 littles online— (they take off their clothes, jump on their beds, and play with their toys). They did not learn to share, collaborate, or get enough personal attention online.
    If you aren’t a teacher, then you may not understand that we want to be with our students and we will do whatever it takes to be with them in the classroom. If masks are required, so be it.
    I understand that you want to be with your kids, and understand the importance of in-person learning, but what about the unions?

    What about all the teacher protests against school opening last year?

    What about all the lawmakers using the school situation as a tool for more restrictions?
    teacherjenn4's Avatar
    teacherjenn4 Posts: 4,005, Reputation: 468
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    #33

    Jul 14, 2021, 06:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life View Post
    I understand that you want to be with your kids, and understand the importance of in-person learning, but what about the unions?

    What about all the teacher protests against school opening last year?

    What about all the lawmakers using the school situation as a tool for more restrictions?
    The only unions with power are the HUGE school districts. You only see those on TV. We were given 3 choices if we didn’t want to return to school : quit, retire (if that applied), or take an unpaid leave of absence. So, no protests, no media coverage, and with some accommodations, we came back well before the rest of the school districts. Don’t believe the media, we were back at school many months before the big districts.
    InfoJunkie4Life's Avatar
    InfoJunkie4Life Posts: 1,410, Reputation: 81
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    #34

    Jul 14, 2021, 07:12 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/in-arkansas-covid-19-cases-surge-as-state-combats-vaccine-skepticism/
    "Right now, it's about everybody pitching in and overcoming any fears about the vaccine...
    Since the beginning of the pandemic, I have been saying the same thing, except, about fears of the Covid-19 virus.

    It is clear that lock-downs do not work, closing schools does not work, the policies do not match the science, and have not since the beginning.

    Even if they did work, you face a philosophical and ethical dilemma: When is it OK to trade freedom and rights, for safety?

    We should quit calling it "common sense" or "safety" or anything the left suggests. It is petty dictator power grabs by those who have the opportunity.

    The Failed Experiment of Covid Lockdowns (WSJ)

    Lockdowns Do Not Control the Coronavirus: The Evidence(AIER)

    Quote Originally Posted by CNN
    No two states have been more different in approaches to fighting coronavirus than California and Florida -- yet both ended up with roughly the same outcome.
    https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2021/0...downs-work.cnn
    Quote Originally Posted by https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3665588
    ...I find no clear association between lockdown policies and mortality development.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by UN Policy Brief - 4-15-20
    Children...have thankfully been largely spared from the direct health effects of COVID-19...[They] are being affected, in particular by the socio-economic impacts and, in some cases, by mitigation measures that may inadvertently do more harm than good.
    https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/...april_2020.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lancet - 5-1-20
    Currently, the evidence to support national closure of schools to combat COVID-19 is very weak and data from influenza outbreaks suggest that school closures could have relatively small effects on a virus with COVID-19’s high transmissibility and apparent low clinical effect on school children. At the same time, these data also show that school closures can have profound economic and social consequences.
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...095-X/fulltext
    Quote Originally Posted by Yahoo Life - 3-15-2020
    CDC Recommends Closing Schools

    Closing schools...may have “some impact” further into community spread, “but that modeling also shows that other mitigation efforts (e.g., hand washing, home isolation) have more impact on both spread of disease and health care measures.”

    “In other countries, those places who closed schools … have not had more success in reducing spread than those that did not,” the CDC also pointed out.
    https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/cdc-...163811736.html
    Quote Originally Posted by AEIR - 6-8-2020
    Why did they close the schools?

    In the face of increasingly clear research on the impact of school closure, we must seriously consider the question of competing harms. Closures offer uncertain and relatively minor benefits in overall pandemic control, but their harms to children and society at large are known and significant.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,351, Reputation: 156
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    #35

    Jul 14, 2021, 12:44 PM
    Kindergarten is crucial for future learning.
    That's a pretty fair statement. It is more so for some students than for others. Have you read Meaningful Differences?
    teacherjenn4's Avatar
    teacherjenn4 Posts: 4,005, Reputation: 468
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    #36

    Jul 14, 2021, 05:20 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    That's a pretty fair statement. It is more so for some students than for others. Have you read Meaningful Differences?
    Yes, when I was a new teacher. Many studies have been published since then. It will be interesting to see if the gap closes with the new transitional kindergarten starting at age 4 and continuing until Kindergarten.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #37

    Jul 14, 2021, 06:11 PM
    IN ALL THIS DEBATE ALL I SEE IS A SINGLE MINDED PERSPECTIVE and yes I am using caps to get the point across, the real issue here is that people are dying in large numbers and as a result health initiatives are in place to protect the population. The kids will recover, their education will go on and much can be learned on line. Most kids are on line already even at a young age and learn much so a few weeks or months will be able to be recovered. All the other issues are a side issue gladly seized upon by the anti-vaxers
    InfoJunkie4Life's Avatar
    InfoJunkie4Life Posts: 1,410, Reputation: 81
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    #38

    Jul 14, 2021, 08:14 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete
    All the other issues are a side issue gladly seized upon by the anti-vaxers
    I'm not an antivaxer. I do think that I have the right to make that decision, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete
    IN ALL THIS DEBATE ALL I SEE IS A SINGLE MINDED PERSPECTIVE
    I was kind of surprised myself.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #39

    Jul 14, 2021, 09:24 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life View Post

    It is clear that lock-downs do not work, closing schools does not work, the policies do not match the science, and have not since the beginning.

    Even if they did work, you face a philosophical and ethical dilemma: When is it OK to trade freedom and rights, for safety?





    You say lockdowns don't work but there is evidence they do, at least in my nation, but for it to work it has to be applied diligently and there in lies the problem. A population can endure a short lockdown, say two weeks, but longer than that and it becomes an enforcement nightmare. Allowing "essential service personnel" to work and move around freely is also a problem unless they are properly designated and controlled. This designation should be constrained to medical workers, supermarket staff, food delivery drivers, utility workers, food processing, plumbers and electricians responding to essential maintenance, service stations. The list is long and not exhaustive and therein lies the problem
    InfoJunkie4Life's Avatar
    InfoJunkie4Life Posts: 1,410, Reputation: 81
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    #40

    Jul 15, 2021, 02:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete
    You say lockdowns don't work but there is evidence they do, at least in my nation, but for it to work it has to be applied diligently and there in lies the problem. A population can endure a short lockdown, say two weeks, but longer than that and it becomes an enforcement nightmare. Allowing "essential service personnel" to work and move around freely is also a problem unless they are properly designated and controlled. This designation should be constrained to medical workers, supermarket staff, food delivery drivers, utility workers, food processing, plumbers and electricians responding to essential maintenance, service stations. The list is long and not exhaustive and therein lies the problem
    So, we should lock-down harder? With a greater thumb on the population? What about all the other nations who don't comply, they will be a threat to you?

    The problem is people indeed, and you can't control everybody in everything. How would you do it different to make it work?

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