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    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #61

    Jul 16, 2021, 01:59 AM
    The merging of corporate and state power . Fascism 101 ;something the left accused Trump of . But in fact fascism is a lefty ideology that Quid apparently is very comfortable with as he applies the use of state power to influence and coerce the big tech monopolies to change which content they do and do not allow to be published. .
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #62

    Jul 16, 2021, 02:47 AM
    We know nothing of the sort! Do you understand the difference between "flagging" and "censoring"? The WH has a perfect right to watch (flag) Facebook for posts that spread disinformation.
    If you don't find it disturbing that the WH is flagging content for their hi tech allies to remove then you support authoritarian censorship . There is no scenario in a free society where this is acceptable . And yes ;if the government pressures or coerces private actors to censor for them it is a flagrant 1st amendment violation . Going through a back door still makes it government censorship .

    See 'Norwood v. Harrison' For more than half a century courts have held that governmental threats can turn private conduct into state action.”

    See 'NRA v Cuomo 'and the ACLU's amicus that defended the NRA because Cuomo was using coercion against companies that did business with the NRA .

    “Although public officials are free to express their opinions and may condemn viewpoints or groups they view as inimical to public welfare,” they cannot abuse their regulatory authority to retaliate against disfavored advocacy organizations and to impose burdens on those organizations’ ability to conduct lawful business.”

    See 'Bantam Books v Sullivan' when the State of Rhode Island tried to use coercive power to prevent book stores from selling books the state deemed to be obscene and offensive . Rhode Island instituted a commission to notify bookstores when they determined a book or magazine to be “objectionable,” and requested their “cooperation” by removing it and refusing to sell it any longer. Four book publishers sued, seeking a declaration that this practice was a violation of the First Amendment even though they were never technically forced to censor. They "voluntarily " removed the books due to the implicit threat . "The Commission's notices, phrased virtually as orders, reasonably understood to be such by the distributor, invariably followed up by police visitations, in fact stopped the circulation of the listed publications ex proprio vigore [by its own force]. It would be naive to credit the State's assertion that these blacklists are in the nature of mere legal advice when they plainly serve as instruments of regulation."

    What will happen when the WH finds books sold on Amazon as "problematic " full of "disinformation " ?
    These hi tech companies have made a Faustian deal with the government so they can maintain their monopolies .
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #63

    Jul 16, 2021, 04:30 AM
    The government has a perfect right to expose disinformation.
    The government is often the conveyor of misinformation .Perfect example is their suppression of information regarding the Wuhan lab as source of covid 19. With the help of their big tech monopoly allies and the compliant press and their so called fact checkers; they covered that up for months .

    Now that Trump is gone , suddenly the theory is in vogue and Facebook now permits such postings . Even Herr doctor Anthony Fauci concedes the possibility when he was the prime so called expert who called out the theory as misinformation .
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,996, Reputation: 155
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    #64

    Jul 16, 2021, 04:49 AM
    If you don't find it disturbing that the WH is flagging content for their hi tech allies to remove then you support authoritarian censorship . There is no scenario in a free society where this is acceptable .
    It's all completely predictable. For liberal dems, if a liberal dem like Robinette Biden is doing it, then it must be OK. If Trump had been doing it, their hair would be on fire right now. Situational ethics in the extreme.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 844, Reputation: 55
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    #65

    Jul 16, 2021, 10:21 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Fascism 101 ;something the left accused Trump of . But in fact fascism is a lefty ideology
    In fact, Trump DID try to create a fascist state with him as Der Fuehrer, but he failed. Fascism is the far right wing of the political spectrum- not the left wing. You have it backwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    See 'Norwood v. Harrison' 'NRA v Cuomo .

    'Bantam Books v Sullivan
    None of these apply to the present situation.

    What will happen when the WH finds books sold on Amazon as "problematic " full of "disinformation " ?
    Are you serious?

    These hi tech companies have made a Faustian deal with the government so they can maintain their monopolies .
    Dream on.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Even Herr doctor Anthony Fauci concedes the possibility when he was the prime so called expert who called out the theory as misinformation .
    Calling him Herr Doctor tells us all we need to know about your theories.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #66

    Jul 16, 2021, 11:48 AM
    Fascism is the far right wing of the political spectrum
    I guess it is how you construct the spectrum . The spectrum I go by has liberty on one side and enslavement /tyranny on the polar opposite . Left /Right are meaningless in that spectrum . One is to aspire to ;one to oppose .
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,996, Reputation: 155
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    #67

    Jul 16, 2021, 12:56 PM
    “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
    Benjamin Franklin
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #68

    Jul 16, 2021, 03:36 PM
    define essential
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,996, Reputation: 155
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    #69

    Jul 16, 2021, 06:05 PM
    That's a great question. I'd say those freedoms contained in our Bill of Rights.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 844, Reputation: 55
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    #70

    Jul 16, 2021, 06:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I guess it is how you construct the spectrum . The spectrum I go by has liberty on one side and enslavement /tyranny on the polar opposite . Left /Right are meaningless in that spectrum . One is to aspire to ;one to oppose .
    I agree with that. The great example is the Russo-German war of 1941-1945. Communism was the extreme left and Fascism/Nazism the extreme right. Both, however, were tyrannies opposed to any kind of liberty.
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    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #71

    Jul 16, 2021, 07:59 PM
    both claimed to be socialist regimes and yet the democracies were glad to get into bed with the Russians which they considered the lesser of two evils. So the only spectrum there was survival. We know pure communism doesn't work, socialism has worked in various implementations and capitalism works for some, but every system leaves a large number of poor struggling for existence
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,530, Reputation: 5430
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    #72

    Jul 16, 2021, 08:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    both claimed to be socialist regimes and yet the democracies were glad to get into bed with the Russians which they considered the lesser of two evils. So the only spectrum there was survival. We know pure communism doesn't work, socialism has worked in various implementations and capitalism works for some, but every system leaves a large number of poor struggling for existence
    What would be a good system for a country? Is there one system that will help the poor and middle class, and still make the wealthy happy?
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #73

    Jul 16, 2021, 08:18 PM
    Well I think ours works pretty well, it is a federal parliamentary democracy where the central government overseas the economy and the states look after service delivery. There are aspects of socialism and of capitalism in play, Universal health care, some state run enterprises like utilities and a strong regulatory regime.

    It used to be much more socialist but it has evolved
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,530, Reputation: 5430
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    #74

    Jul 16, 2021, 08:22 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    Well I think ours works pretty well, it is a federal parliamentary democracy where the central government overseas the economy and the states look after service delivery. There are aspects of socialism and of capitalism in play, Universal health care, some state run enterprises like utilities and a strong regulatory regime.

    It used to be much more socialist but it has evolved
    What are the names of the offices in charge? For central government? For the states? Who oversees universal health care? (I should google this!)
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #75

    Jul 17, 2021, 02:52 AM
    the democracies were glad to get into bed with the Russians which they considered the lesser of two evils.
    yeah Stalin only murdered 20 million people .
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #76

    Jul 17, 2021, 04:13 AM
    Clete likes the behemoth ,benevolent ,bureaucratic nanny state model .with a proliferation of regulations designed to protected the Aussie citizens from themselves . Some examples are the oft spoken of gun laws . They go from there to taxing alcohol and tobacco to impose behavior penalties ...restrictive speed limits,mandatory lock out laws (close the pub by 10) ,diluted beer at sporting events ,mandatory bicycle helmet laws and mandatory voting laws .

    When some Aussies revolt ;like in the case involving covid ;the nanny state gets even more restrictive .Vacuum bans after 10 pm . Who ever heard of such nonsense ?

    The Aussies had a reputation of being laid back and a bit defiant of authority . That may have been when Clete was a young man . But now they bleat to the same tune .
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,493, Reputation: 1860
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    #77

    Jul 17, 2021, 04:33 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Clete likes the behemoth ,benevolent ,bureaucratic nanny state model .with a proliferation of regulations designed to protected the Aussie citizens from themselves . Some examples are the oft spoken of gun laws . They go from there to taxing alcohol and tobacco to impose behavior penalties ...restrictive speed limits,mandatory lock out laws (close the pub by 10) ,diluted beer at sporting events ,mandatory bicycle helmet laws and mandatory voting laws .
    Actually what you have just described also includes the rest of the developed world, Europe, UK and the USA.
    Much of what you describe codifies, so called, common sense behaviours for civilised living.
    Freedom comes at a cost.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,996, Reputation: 155
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    #79

    Jul 17, 2021, 06:07 AM
    Freedom comes at a cost.
    The cost is the voluntary exercising of moral behavior by the citizens. In the words of John Adams, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #80

    Jul 17, 2021, 06:48 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    What are the names of the offices in charge? For central government? For the states? Who oversees universal health care? (I should google this!)
    There are ministers of state who oversee government departments who implement the decisions of the parliaments. these ministers of state are first and foremost elected representatives who sit in the parliament and answer directly to their peers. the department of health overseas the universal health care system and the state governments oversee the hospitals and clinics. there is a parallel private health care system. The federal government overseas aged care which is delivered by private institutions. At a local level medicine is delivered by private clinics and paid for by the government with some co contribution maybe 30% of clinics charge a fee

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