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    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,493, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #21

    Jul 8, 2021, 01:22 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is relative to the Trump case.
    In this case he's claiming 1st amendments rights, Freedom of Speech, so it does, very clearly.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,107, Reputation: 155
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    #22

    Jul 8, 2021, 01:31 PM
    Yeah. I misread her comment. You will note that I changed my post. Sorry about that.

    I'll just say again that when one company has practically complete control over an enormous business sector, and one which, in this case, involves the transmission of an incredible amount of info, then we should be concerned about that. I don't know that Trump has much of a case here, but it is an issue that should be addressed. The manner, for instance, in which big tech was able to essentially squash Parler should alarm all of us.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 906, Reputation: 55
    Senior Member
     
    #23

    Jul 8, 2021, 03:36 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    As for his law suit ;he is making a mistake by basing it on 1st amendment grounds. The REAL problem is that these companies have monopolies . If there was REAL competition in the market place then he would have many choices of forums to express his views
    Imo, the problem is size, not monopoly, which is one company dominating a market. There are a number of companies competing - but for what? Ultimately ad revenue. Facebook dwarfs Google in number of users, but Google dwarfs Facebook in ad revenue.

    The fact that someone like Bezos can use the power of Amazon AND the Washington Compost to dominate the public debate and in fact set the debate ,and decide who can participate is the issue .
    No way does Amazon and WAPO dominate the public debate.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,322, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #24

    Jul 8, 2021, 04:14 PM
    Doing away with state sales and income taxes would leave schools and state agencies without money and destitute, so that's not a good idea
    Texas has no state tax...just saying.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #25

    Jul 8, 2021, 04:24 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post

    If you want to comment on our country, you might want to try doing your homework first. Just sayin.
    Ideas are there for discussion, the idea is not to increase taxation but to make it more effective so there is truth. Politicians have confused the issue until the system is burdensome and ineffective allowing the burden to fall on those who can't rort the system
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,594, Reputation: 5430
    Jobs & Parenting Expert
     
    #26

    Jul 8, 2021, 04:40 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    Ideas are there for discussion, the idea is not to increase taxation but to make it more effective
    Good point! So why are taxes levied? Aren't they supposed to improve our lives?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,107, Reputation: 155
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    #27

    Jul 8, 2021, 04:51 PM
    So you are going to put us in the black by NOT increasing taxes? I don’t think you realize how bad our budget problem is. Might add that the wealthy in America pay most of the income tax by far.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,594, Reputation: 5430
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    #28

    Jul 8, 2021, 05:09 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So you are going to put us in the black by NOT increasing taxes.
    Why increase? Why not reallocate and use them more effectively and efficiently?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #29

    Jul 8, 2021, 05:14 PM
    Ben ,I expressed my opinion about breaking up the hi tech monopolies and about Sec. 230 on a previous OP that was closed by administration . I don't recall the circumstances ;but most likely it had no relevance to the posting


    Found previous posting ...
    Break up the Big Tech Monopolies .....Parler sues Amazon over anti-trust violations (askmehelpdesk.com)
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #30

    Jul 8, 2021, 05:55 PM
    Yes Bezos very much does dominate in a cartel with the other hi tech companies . When Trump was bumped from Twitter ,a competing company called Parler was created . Then Bezos used Amazon to deny Parler access to the web through it's web hosting service.
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,493, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #31

    Jul 9, 2021, 05:13 AM
    Last time of asking, please stay on topic.
    Yes, I have removed some posts and my next action will be to close.
    You know the line, stop stomping on it.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,107, Reputation: 155
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    #32

    Jul 9, 2021, 05:47 AM
    There are a number of companies competing
    There are? Who is competing with FB? Who is competing with Twitter? Parler, the company they managed to squash?

    This is what should be at the core of Trump's complaint. When you are banned from FB, you are effectively banned from that entire sphere of communication. Same is true for Twitter. There are no real alternatives.
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,493, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #33

    Jul 9, 2021, 05:49 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Ben ,I expressed my opinion about breaking up the hi tech monopolies and about Sec. 230 on a previous OP that was closed by administration . I don't recall the circumstances ;but most likely it had no relevance to the posting


    Found previous posting ...
    Break up the Big Tech Monopolies .....Parler sues Amazon over anti-trust violations (askmehelpdesk.com)
    Here's the relevant parts:

    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    This happened before and I believe a populist nationalist waded into the swamp and created the Sherman Anti-Trust act making such monopolistic practices illegal. Parler has filed an anti-trust complaint against Amazon. Depending on the outcome we will see how broken the system is . Also Sec 230 of the Communications Decency Act needs to be repealed or amended . It makes exception for providers who block so called offensive material .The reason it needs amending is because it give broad discretion to the providers to decide what is offensive .
    Quote Originally Posted by Curlyben View Post
    You do realise that removing section 230 will lead to vastly increased censorship on the social streams....
    Here included.
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    fair enough . I worded it incorrectly . Sec 230 needs reform. the words "or otherwise objectionable " is too broad given the intent of the section .It gives sites protection for removing anything they want .Being able to remove anti-terrorism ,child sex abuse and cyber stalking is not the same as suppression of political speech. The goal should be that the net remain free and fair; especially in our current environment when a group of companies can collude to control political thought content .

    The intent of 230 was to “to encourage telecommunications and information service providers to deploy new technologies and policies” for filtering or blocking offensive materials online ....not to filter out political thought the site owners do not agree with.
    S. Rept. 104-23 - TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMPETITION AND DEREGULATION ACT OF 1995 | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

    The importance of the net has grown since the section was adopted . It has evolved into the main public square . 1996 few people spent much time on the net . Today net surfing occupies hours of people's time .It has replaced the news paper as the primary source of information, If you look at it in that content then what the big tech companies did was controlling content by making sure their smaller competition could not get paper and printing ink to publish .

    And it has gone even further than that. Political campaigns are conducted on the net. What big tech did this cycle was to be the defacto arbiters of the political debate on the net . Political ideas were filtered through self appointed "fact checkers " ,and at a minimum were labelled as missing content ;at worse they were removed from the sites . The sites became much more than conduits of content .They became the editors of content .

    I would not even have much objection to that . As some here have argued ,they are private companies . What they did however by blocking a competitors site from the public forum was to become the FINAL editors of political debate on the net ....and that is wholly unacceptable. If sec 230 protects this type of activity then it must be reformed .
    Quote Originally Posted by Curlyben View Post
    Sites are still privately owned and as such well within their rights to be run by their own Terms of Service and how they see fit.
    Facebook is well known for it's moderating style, while user driven, the results tend on the draconian side.

    Intent vs the letter can be very different things and that is what keeps many Judges and lawyers employed.
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Yes there is intent and unintended consequences . When unintended consequences are harmful then the issue needs reexamination.
    There's more if you feel the need to review yourselves.
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,493, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #34

    Jul 9, 2021, 05:54 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    There are? Who is competing with FB? Who is competing with Twitter? Parler, the company they managed to squash?

    This is what should be at the core of Trump's complaint. When you are banned from FB, you are effectively banned from that entire sphere of communication. Same is true for Twitter. There are no real alternatives.
    There are many others in the Social media sphere, however, Facebook and twitter are the market leaders in their delivery style.
    Remember MySpace, Bebo, etc...
    Even Yahoo and AOL, back in the day.

    Are you suggesting that the market leaders in a field are artificially limited in their reach ?
    This goes back to the absolute heart of what America is about and how the pursuit of profit is seen as the only driver worth considering.
    The Ferengi have nothing on Big Business America.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 906, Reputation: 55
    Senior Member
     
    #35

    Jul 9, 2021, 12:44 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Curlyben View Post
    This goes back to the absolute heart of what America is about and how the pursuit of profit is seen as the only driver worth considering.
    There are other drivers of America and the pursuit of profit is not the heart of the country. It's right arm, maybe. I could go with that.

    I would remind you of the generosity of America helping others recover from the devastation of WW2, including your own country, and the protections offered since then by the American military umbrella, including your own country.

    The pursuit of profit, however, is not always a bad thing. It drives innovation, education, invention, ambition, and many other things resulting in better living standards for the great majority of its citizens and citizens elsewhere. It is not without its problems - that's obvious to all - but it also drives social programs that recognize the problems and serves as a source of funds and dedicated people for those programs.

    That is not to say we have not been recipients of great gifts from other nations. Chief among them may be your nation's gift of its long history of achieving self-government that was transmitted to 13 separate colonies many years ago leading to unification.

    The Ferengi have nothing on Big Business America.
    We're better-looking.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #36

    Jul 9, 2021, 01:51 PM
    As I said ,the drive to control run away hi tech is bipartisan
    Biden Targets Big Business in Sweeping Executive Order to Spur Competition (msn.com)
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,107, Reputation: 155
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    #37

    Jul 9, 2021, 02:50 PM
    There are many others in the Social media sphere, however, Facebook and twitter are the market leaders in their delivery style.
    Remember MySpace, Bebo, etc...
    Even Yahoo and AOL, back in the day.
    There are many others? Name one that currently is even 1/10th the size of FB or Twitter. If you can't, and you can't, then why does that not amount to a monopoly?

    Are you suggesting that the market leaders in a field are artificially limited in their reach ?
    This goes back to the absolute heart of what America is about and how the pursuit of profit is seen as the only driver worth considering.
    I'm saying that when Parler had a good shot at becoming a legit competitor, Twitter, FB, and Amazon conspired to basically kick them off the web and end that threat. Would you consider that to be "artificially limited in their reach?"
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,594, Reputation: 5430
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    #38

    Jul 9, 2021, 02:58 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    There are many others? Name one that currently is even 1/10th the size of FB or Twitter.
    YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, WhatsApp.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,107, Reputation: 155
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    #39

    Jul 9, 2021, 03:34 PM
    YouTube,
    Really??? A competitor for Facebook or Twitter? Hardly. Not the same type of App at all.

    WhatsApp is not the same type of application as Twitter and certainly not as FB.

    Instagram is owned by...you guessed it, Facebook. Has been for nearly ten years.

    I'm not real familiar with TikTok. It is Chinese owned and has a different approach in some respects from Twitter. It could be considered a legit competitor.

    None of them competes with Facebook. No one else really does either.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #40

    Jul 9, 2021, 03:58 PM
    I'm not real familiar with TikTok. It is Chinese owned and has a different approach in some respects from Twitter. It could be considered a legit competitor.
    collects data of users for the CCP and is their mouthpiece

    New DOJ Filing: TikTok's Owner Is 'A Mouthpiece' Of Chinese Communist Party : NPR

    Why TikTok’s China ties are causing a national security controversy - Vox

    The U.S. Is Right to Worry About TikTok - Lawfare (lawfareblog.com)

    TikTok Parent Company ByteDance Spreads Chinese Propaganda: Report (businessinsider.com)

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