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    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,493, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #1

    Jun 27, 2021, 09:42 AM
    The serious backlash starts....
    Rudy Giuliani has New York law licence suspended
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57597551

    All well and good claiming Free Speech protections, but being caught out telling unsubstantiated lies in court is perjury..
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
    Ultra Member
     
    #2

    Jun 27, 2021, 01:37 PM
    Hoping the rule applies to all lawyers who venture into political advocacy .

    Also there is a heavy reliance on statement Rudy made outside of the court room.

    Matter of Giuliani (2021-00506) PC.pdf (nycourts.gov)

    The court said Rudy used “his large megaphone ,and that contributed in their decision because by using “his large megaphone," he inflamed . If that is the standard used for judging lawyer behavior then it should apply to all. But they do not charge him with incitement because that case against him is weak.

    There are many other lawyers/advocates where that case is more compelling . Lawyers all over urban America opened their pie holes inflaming riots a year ago . Portland has been aflame for some time and in the middle of it has been lawyer with loud megaphones .

    He questioned the legitimacy of the 2020 election . So what ? How many lawyers working for the Evita cabal questioned the results of the 2016 Trump win ? The law firm of Perkins Cole hired Fusion GPS to smear the Trump campaign with lies. Give them the same sentence

    Questioning the election integrity is not a crime .I hope the NY bar understands that . 72 million voted for Trump .Many of us believe that changes made in the middle of the game due to the virus (ie massive increases in mail in voting ) affected the outcome and contributed to the mistrust in the process.


    Rudy is the highest profile lawyer targeted for political reasons .But he is not the only one Groups like the Lincoln Project went after almost every other Trump lawyer . They along with Democrat operatives went after law firms like Porter, Wright, Morris & Arthur and threatening its lawyers with professional ruin. It claimed that any firm working for Trump on election litigation was part of a “dangerous attack on our democracy.”

    But the real threat to democracy is stripping people their right to representation for political reasons . A lawyer must act with zealous advocacy on behalf of their client .And that is what Rudy did.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 905, Reputation: 55
    Senior Member
     
    #3

    Jun 27, 2021, 04:32 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The court said Rudy used “his large megaphone ,and that contributed in their decision because by using “his large megaphone," he inflamed
    Note that tomder's diatribe says little about Giuliani, but plenty about unrelated matters. You left out quite a lot, tomder. Here's more.

    "We conclude that there is uncontroverted evidence that respondent communicated demonstrably false and misleading statements to courts, lawmakers and the public at large in his capacity as lawyer for former President Donald J. Trump and the Trump campaign in connection with Trump’s failed effort at reelection in 2020," a New York state appellate court ruled.

    "These false statements were made to improperly bolster respondent’s narrative that due to widespread voter fraud, victory in the 2020 United States presidential election was stolen from his client. We conclude that respondent’s conduct immediately threatens the public interest and warrants interim suspension from the practice of law, pending further proceedings before the Attorney Grievance Committee."

    Giuliani responded, "I could call 100 witnesses to support what I'm saying, and I'm ready to do it." As anybody who follows this crazy person knows, he has had many chances in court to bring or name witnesses, but he has failed to do so every time.

    Earlier this year, the state bar association was looking at removing Giuliani as a member over his election-related conduct, and on Thursday, following the court's suspension, they confirmed that they would in fact remove him as member.

    Questioning the election integrity is not a crime
    The charge is not about questioning, it is lying on behalf of Trump - over and over again.

    Many of us believe that changes made in the middle of the game due to the virus (ie massive increases in mail in voting ) affected the outcome and contributed to the mistrust in the process.
    You need more than unfounded belief. You need proof. 60 courts have dismissed election fraud cases brought by Giuliani and others. Trump's own supporters including AG Barr have likewise dismissed election fraud.

    Specific examples of Giuliani's fraud:

    “At various times, respondent claimed that 65,000 or 66,000 or 165,00 underage voters illegally voted in the Georgia 2020 election,” the court said in its order. “The Georgia Office of the Secretary of State undertook an investigation of this claim. It compared the list of all of the people who voted in Georgia to their full birthdays. The audit revealed that there were zero (0) underage voters in the 2020 election.”

    The order notes that Giuliani “repeatedly stated that dead people ‘voted’ in Philadelphia in order to discredit the results of the vote in that city. He quantified the amount of dead people who voted at various times as 8,021; while also reporting the number as 30,000.”

    The court order noted that Giuliani “has not provided this tribunal with any report or the results of any investigation which supports his statements about how many dead voters he claims voted in Philadelphia.

    For more examples of Giuliani's fraud, click on this link.
    https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/nati...laims/3124531/


    A lawyer must act with zealous advocacy on behalf of their client .And that is what Rudy did.
    No, what Rudy did was LIE on behalf of his client. He continues to do so.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
    Ultra Member
     
    #4

    Jun 27, 2021, 04:46 PM
    They suspend his license because he asserted that the election was stolen and widespread fraud happened . The burden is on them to prove that his statements were " demonstrably false" . That should be interesting. I don't think they have that let along proof that he knowingly made false statements .

    My point stands . None of the attorneys who claimed for years that Trump was elected through “Russian collusion” has been disciplined in a similar manner.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 905, Reputation: 55
    Senior Member
     
    #5

    Jun 27, 2021, 07:56 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    They suspend his license because he asserted that the election was stolen and widespread fraud happened . The burden is on them to prove that his statements were " demonstrably false" . That should be interesting. I don't think they have that let along proof that he knowingly made false statements .
    I just gave you two examples - more from where that came. Ignoring them does you no good.

    My point stands . None of the attorneys who claimed for years that Trump was elected through “Russian collusion” has been disciplined in a similar manner.
    Irrelevant point.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,107, Reputation: 155
    Ultra Member
     
    #6

    Jun 30, 2021, 01:43 PM
    My point stands . None of the attorneys who claimed for years that Trump was elected through “Russian collusion” has been disciplined in a similar manner.
    That's a great point. The selective application of standards should always be a concern. The selective outrage of the left should also be a concern.
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,493, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #7

    Jun 30, 2021, 02:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    My point stands . None of the attorneys who claimed for years that Trump was elected through “Russian collusion” has been disciplined in a similar manner.
    That's a great point. The selective application of standards should always be a concern. The selective outrage of the left should also be a concern.
    Yes, a good point but one that doesn't grab headlines, or the fact that Mr G was Trump personal lawyer at the time...
    High value targets and all that.
    If you want to silence a yapping dog you don't merely slap it's backside, you go for more obvious targets.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 905, Reputation: 55
    Senior Member
     
    #8

    Jun 30, 2021, 04:26 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Curlyben View Post
    Yes, a good point
    Apples and pomegranates.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
    Ultra Member
     
    #9

    Jun 30, 2021, 06:15 PM
    If you want to silence a yapping dog you don't merely slap it's backside, you go for more obvious targets.
    The yapping dog has already been silenced, move on
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,107, Reputation: 155
    Ultra Member
     
    #10

    Jul 1, 2021, 06:43 AM
    The yapping dog has already been silenced,
    Hardly. The number one task is to replace the old, tired hound we currently have with someone who can get the job done.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 905, Reputation: 55
    Senior Member
     
    #11

    Jul 1, 2021, 07:08 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    None of the attorneys who claimed for years that Trump was elected through “Russian collusion” has been disciplined in a similar manner.
    What attorneys?
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,493, Reputation: 1860
    BossMan
     
    #12

    Jul 1, 2021, 09:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    None of the attorneys who claimed for years that Trump was elected through “Russian collusion” has been disciplined in a similar manner.
    None of them were under oath at the time of these comments.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
    Ultra Member
     
    #13

    Jul 1, 2021, 04:31 PM
    None of them were under oath at the time of these comments
    correction none of then were CAUGHT lying under oath.... oh except perhaps ex Director of National Intelligence James Clapper who's bald face public lies were debunked by his own testimony to Congress where he admitted after months of lying that he never saw any direct empirical evidence that the Trump campaign or someone in it was plotting [or] conspiring with the Russians to meddle with the election.”

    Or Deputy Director of the FBI Andrew McCabe who admitted under oath that under oath, that FBI investigators had been unable to verify the Steele dossier, which was paid for by the Democratic National Committee and the Clinton campaign; but had been used by the FBI to obtain warrants to spy on the Trump campaign.

    Then there is the case of Kevin Clinesmith ,the one FBI lawyer involved in the coup attempt against Trump who has taken a fall .[FONT=FreightText, Georgia, serif][COLOR=#2c2c2c]Clinesmith pleaded guilty to a false statement charge, admitting that he doctored an email that the FBI used as it sought court approval to spy on Trump campaign worker Carter Page .

    Rudy's case is far from over . [/COLOR][/FONT]
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 905, Reputation: 55
    Senior Member
     
    #14

    Jul 1, 2021, 04:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Rudy's case is far from over .
    None of that measures up to what Rudy did. He's going down - bigly.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,107, Reputation: 155
    Ultra Member
     
    #15

    Jul 1, 2021, 06:40 PM
    If it goes in the same direction as the collusion accusations, he'll come out in good shape.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
    Ultra Member
     
    #16

    Jul 1, 2021, 10:20 PM
    Trump is now on the ropes. His CFO is charged with dishonesty and tax evasion so they have evidence that could extend to Trump. The tax evasion relates to fringe benefits so it is just a ploy to get him to give up Trump.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
    Ultra Member
     
    #17

    Jul 2, 2021, 03:04 AM
    Yeah typical prosecution strategery . Someone in the organization does something wrong .They pile on him and then offer a deal to him that includes providing dirt on the person above them in the food chain. He is motivated so he says what the prosecution wants to hear .
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,107, Reputation: 155
    Ultra Member
     
    #18

    Jul 2, 2021, 04:36 AM
    Federal tax laws have become so large and complex that they can basically get just about anyone at any time. It's a wonder that we put up with it. If we are going to continue with an income tax, we need a simple flat tax. It would amount to every person's share of the cost of government instead of the current plan where the top 10% of income earners pay practically all of income taxes.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
    Ultra Member
     
    #19

    Jul 2, 2021, 05:46 AM
    As far as I can tell ,the charges are political . The list of charges are extensive ,but the case comes down to the heinous crime that some perks were given to Weisselberg (parking garage fees, tuition for family members and reimbursement of holiday gratuities) . None of that is illegal . But taxes needed to be paid and evidently that was neglected ;or the wrong Trump entity paid the benefits or some such nonsense.
    Normally the lawyers and the prosecutors meet behind closed doors and come to an agreed resolution ,mostly involved paying what is due . But since Trump was involved ,and Cy Vance is looking to make a name for himself for some future run as NY Governor , Weisselberg was cuffed and paraded as if he was a Mafioso capo .

    As J just commented ,the tax laws are so complex that it is easy pickings to find some technical illegality in the conduct of regular business activities That is why it is necessary for major businesses to hire an army of tax lawyers and accountants .Robert Jackson ;a Nuremberg prosecutor and Associate Justice of SCOTUS , warned against political prosecutions :

    If the prosecutor is obliged to choose his cases, it follows that he can choose his defendants. Therein is the most dangerous power of the prosecutor: that he will pick people that he thinks he should get, rather than pick cases that need to be prosecuted. With the law books filled with a great assortment of crimes, a prosecutor stands a fair chance of finding at least a technical violation of some act on the part of almost anyone. In such a case, it is not a question of discovering the commission of a crime and then looking for the man who has committed it, it is a question of picking the man and then searching the law books, or putting investigators to work, to pin some offense on him. It is in this realm-in which the prosecutor picks some person whom he dislikes or desires to embarrass, or selects some group of unpopular persons and then looks for an offense, that the greatest danger of abuse of prosecuting power lies. It is here that law enforcement becomes personal, and the real crime becomes that of being unpopular with the predominant or governing group, being attached to the wrong political views, or being personally obnoxious to or in the way of the prosecutor himself.
    The Federal Prosecutor - Robert H Jackson Center
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 4,107, Reputation: 155
    Ultra Member
     
    #20

    Jul 2, 2021, 05:57 AM
    If the prosecutor is obliged to choose his cases, it follows that he can choose his defendants. Therein is the most dangerous power of the prosecutor: that he will pick people that he thinks he should get, rather than pick cases that need to be prosecuted.
    The man was a prophet. It's but one of the dangers of large government.

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