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    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #81

    May 27, 2020, 11:47 AM
    Not a complaint just an observation.
    Fair enough.

    We may claim to have the best system in the world, but this virus has taught us things can change really fast even for the big dog on the block. Will we learn and work to do better? Not so far we have not. Chances are it gets worse before we get a chance to get back what we had.
    You might very well be right about that. And when the bill comes due, it's going to look even darker than it does now.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #82

    May 27, 2020, 03:57 PM
    If we cannot figure out a way to manage our economy, debts included, then we need better managers. I see this as an opportunity to get better, a challenge so to speak, to make good on all that glory talk we've been doing since the last world war!

    I agree it's put up or shut up time, unless you're afraid of the dark.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,741, Reputation: 341
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    #83

    May 27, 2020, 05:51 PM
    I see this as an opportunity to get better, a challenge so to speak, to make good on all that glory talk we've been doing since the last world war!
    Never let a crisis go to waste .
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #84

    May 27, 2020, 05:55 PM
    Going deeper into already titanic debt with no end in sight is never an opportunity to get better.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #85

    May 27, 2020, 11:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Never let a crisis go to waste .
    Well trump hasn't let this one go to waste, he has accused china of a clandestine attack on the US, he has spent trillions, although it is not clear on what, he has closed borders, alienated other nations and been fact checked on twitter
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #86

    May 28, 2020, 04:37 AM
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #87

    May 28, 2020, 06:42 AM
    you just woke up?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #88

    May 28, 2020, 06:44 AM
    You just start reading?
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #89

    May 28, 2020, 06:52 AM
    No I'm selective
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #90

    May 28, 2020, 07:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Never let a crisis go to waste .
    Especially if it damages the opposition. Politics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    Well trump hasn't let this one go to waste, he has accused china of a clandestine attack on the US, he has spent trillions, although it is not clear on what, he has closed borders, alienated other nations and been fact checked on twitter
    Politics 101, when the opposition self destructs, let them and make an ad.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Corona is what's disrupting American life, and even politicians capitalists liberals and conservatives are pretty much helpless to stop it. Even replacing all the politicians corona19 would be kicking everybody's butt.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #91

    May 28, 2020, 03:01 PM
    In some ways that's true, but I'll tell you this. Once we return to the place of having to actually pay for what we want, then you won't see these kinds of thoughtless shut-downs of the economy.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #92

    May 28, 2020, 03:58 PM
    well we agree on one thing, the shutdowns were a knee jerk reaction
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #93

    May 28, 2020, 04:08 PM
    Made easier by the belief that borrowed money is as good as tax revenues.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #94

    May 28, 2020, 04:23 PM
    Wonder what a better plan would have been? I don't think reopening amid rising sickness and death is a long term solution either. There seems to be slow responses in some areas just becoming hotspots, and maybe some can ignore the mass graves without funerals and the freezer trucks behind hospitals and undertakers running out of caskets in NY, but that can happen any place in America.

    So I ask what would be a more effective plan to curb the sickness and deaths that this virus has brought us? I can understand the Aussie response being different than ours Clete, but our numbers are just that much greater than yours.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #95

    May 28, 2020, 07:15 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Wonder what a better plan would have been? I don't think reopening amid rising sickness and death is a long term solution either. There seems to be slow responses in some areas just becoming hotspots, and maybe some can ignore the mass graves without funerals and the freezer trucks behind hospitals and undertakers running out of caskets in NY, but that can happen any place in America.

    So I ask what would be a more effective plan to curb the sickness and deaths that this virus has brought us? I can understand the Aussie response being different than ours Clete, but our numbers are just that much greater than yours.
    Ask yourself; could things have been worse if the economy had stayed open and some normal precautions taken? 100,000 deaths, things couldn't be much worse. What numbers are you speaking of? infections? deaths? yes certainly worse, but our experience is different. many infections here came from returning travellers, there has been no community infections to speak of. We did the shutdown thing, panicked by the "science" and it all came to very little, but the damage to the economy is enormous. What is different here is we don't live so tightly packed together and we don't have the poor problem you have. So universal health care gave better outcomes but political B/S did the damage anyway. The H1N1 strains will kill more people even with an effective vaccine, even the bush fire smoke killed more people so shutdown was just a political exercise
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #96

    May 29, 2020, 02:35 AM
    Ask yourself; could things have been worse if the economy had stayed open and some normal precautions taken?
    I don't know what normal precautions, is but there are no normal treatments for this virus that are effective so far, and spreads rapidly, and is spreading even as we do the reopening thing, so yes I think things would be much worse had the economy stayed open, and we will know the effects of reopening soon enough.

    It's not just our response here Clete, but the whole world, and while some may say that keeping people home was an over reaction, that may have been the one thing we could do to slow the spread of the virus at the expense of economic disruption. I see even more disruptions with the economy as people go about business as usual and sickness and death are spread further and faster.

    It's not like it's gone away here and it's over, and we conquered the thing.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #97

    May 29, 2020, 04:44 AM
    We need to look at Japan. They, for the most part, did not shelter in place and yet had relatively good success with the virus.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #98

    May 29, 2020, 06:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    I don't know what normal precautions, is but there are no normal treatments for this virus that are effective so far, and spreads rapidly, and is spreading even as we do the reopening thing, so yes I think things would be much worse had the economy stayed open, and we will know the effects of reopening soon enough.

    It's not just our response here Clete, but the whole world, and while some may say that keeping people home was an over reaction, that may have been the one thing we could do to slow the spread of the virus at the expense of economic disruption. I see even more disruptions with the economy as people go about business as usual and sickness and death are spread further and faster.

    It's not like it's gone away here and it's over, and we conquered the thing.
    I think in hindsight you have a population with more potential medical problems, some of it is genetic, some lifestyle and it hit you in winter. Business as usual has little to do with it, people got to eat, got to shelter and to do that they need money. All the science can't account for lack of money
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 511, Reputation: 55
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    #99

    May 29, 2020, 07:22 AM
    Several East Asian nations that performed well against the virus had several things in common, the most important being how quickly they reacted against Covid-19.

    In contrast, Trump's administration did nothing after many early warnings with Trump going so far as calling it a hoax when the virus was demonstrably reaching pandemic proportions. His delay of up to two months has resulted in 37,000 deaths according to epidemiologists.

    Trump continues to mismanage the crisis by ineffective and absent leadership.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #100

    May 29, 2020, 08:47 AM
    how quickly they reacted against Covid-19.
    What did they do? Japan is not sheltering in place nor have they closed down their economy, so what did they do that was so effective that we somehow missed?

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