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    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #61

    May 28, 2020, 07:13 PM
    could be, however back to the OP, China has come out swinging in response to Trump and Pompeo or is that Caesar and Pompey?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #62

    May 29, 2020, 11:58 AM
    The dufus is counter punching on TV now.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,741, Reputation: 341
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    #63

    May 29, 2020, 12:25 PM
    https://www.state.gov/2020-hong-kong...OnqsgZyBk7uHPY


    Consistent with sections 205 and 301 of the United States-Hong Kong Policy Act of 1992 (the “Act”), as amended by the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act of 2019, and section 7043(f)(4)(B) of the Department of State, Foreign Operations, and Related Programs Appropriations Act, 2020 (Div. G, P.L. 116-94), the Department submits this report and the enclosed certification on developments in Hong Kong from March 2019 through May 2020.
    Summary

    The Department of State is obligated by law to certify to Congress annually whether Hong Kong continues to warrant differential treatment under U.S. law. After careful consideration, as required by section 301 of the Hong Kong Policy Act, I can no longer certify that Hong Kong continues to warrant such treatment.
    This decertification should come as no surprise, given the facts on the ground. When the United Kingdom handed Hong Kong over to the Chinese Communist Party-led regime in Beijing in 1997, the hope was that free and prosperous Hong Kong would change China by leading the regime in a more liberal direction. China’s promise was that for 50 years, Hong Kong would have certain rights and a system of governance guaranteed by the Sino-British Joint Declaration, a UN-filed international treaty. Instead, authoritarian China has now changed Hong Kong.
    The erosion of the territory’s liberties has happened gradually over a period of years, and has accelerated since General Secretary Xi Jinping took power. In 2014, Beijing effectively ruled out universal suffrage as a means to elect the territory’s leader. Dissidents were spirited out of Hong Kong into mainland China and forced to “confess” alleged crimes. Facing Beijing-backed advertising boycotts and other pressure, local media outlets self-censored their coverage of the CCP. Beijing announced the expulsion of U.S. journalists working from mainland China, and said it would prohibit them from reporting from Hong Kong as well.
    In last year’s report, I asserted that Hong Kong maintained “a sufficient – although diminished – degree of autonomy,” as an acknowledgement of Beijing’s escalating assault on the territory. Since that report was issued, China has shed any pretense that the people of Hong Kong enjoy the high degree of autonomy, democratic institutions, and civil liberties guaranteed to them by the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the Basic Law.
    In November 2019, the Legislative Affairs Commission of the National People’s Congress Standing Committee issued a statement asserting that only the NPCSC has the power to decide whether Hong Kong laws comply with the Basic Law. This statement challenged fundamental principles of autonomy and the long-established practice of Hong Kong courts exercising the power of judicial review to adjudicate laws and review government actions.
    On April 17, 2020, the Chinese government’s Central Government Liaison Office (CGLO) in Hong Kong issued a statement claiming that CGLO and the central government’s Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office in Beijing are not bound by a provision of the Basic Law which states that “no department of the Central People’s Government . . . may interfere in the affairs” of Hong Kong.
    On May 22, 2020, the PRC announced a proposal at the National People’s Congress (NPC) to unilaterally and arbitrarily impose national security legislation on Hong Kong, a procedural step which contradicts the spirit and practice of the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the One Country, Two Systems framework.
    The people of Hong Kong turned out in the millions to protest these violations of their human rights and fundamental freedoms, not to mention China’s betrayal of its own promises to the territory. Instead of listening to their grievances and finding a democratic solution, the Hong Kong government deployed tear gas and made mass arrests, including of peaceful demonstrators, while Beijing reportedly dispatched its People’s Armed Police into Hong Kong, contrary to its promises under the Basic Law and the Sino-British Joint Declaration.
    Hong Kong flourished for decades as a bastion of liberty and example of what China could aspire to become. I hope that someday in the future, I will be able to recertify that the territory once again warrants differential treatment under U.S. law. Given present circumstances, the chance of that happening is remote. In the meantime, the United States stands with the people of Hong Kong as they struggle against the CCP’s increasing denial of the autonomy they were promised.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #64

    May 29, 2020, 01:18 PM
    All the things going on around the country, and all he can do is read a brief statement about China.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #65

    May 29, 2020, 02:49 PM
    His name is Trump. That settles it for Tal. No amount of reason or law will prevail.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,741, Reputation: 341
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    #66

    May 29, 2020, 03:09 PM
    China has broken the agreement . I am very concerned for Hong Kong. The people I know from there some coworkers will resist to the end.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #67

    May 29, 2020, 03:42 PM
    I share the sentiment Tom, but in the grand scheme of things the dufus has much more pressing matters, and responsibilities. However, we wait and see, what transpires next. Hong Kong has been brewing a while, and no rhetoric changes that, but reason dictates domestic attention as he and Xi can talk privately.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #68

    May 29, 2020, 03:43 PM
    Britain has declared open doors for British subjects, the balance of the HK citizanry will have to suck it up, they are chinese afteral, and taiwan will be next
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #69

    May 29, 2020, 03:45 PM
    Poking the bear is not a reasonable strategy. Just escalates a already shaky situation.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #70

    May 29, 2020, 03:51 PM
    No Trump would rather chain the bear, but the bear is having none of it
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #71

    May 29, 2020, 04:12 PM
    Xi will play the long game, but has plenty of moves to play NOW! As we say in the locker room...don't drop your soap!
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,741, Reputation: 341
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    #72

    May 29, 2020, 04:59 PM
    He sees the world dealing with the pandemic he inflicted on the world and is taking the opportunity to flex China's muscle everywhere . South China Sea ,Hong Kong Taiwan even India .

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...sions-escalate

    India is not backing down . The people of Hong Kong are fighting a valiant fight . The Chinese will underestimate the protest . Hong Kong is built perfectly for urban street action .
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 511, Reputation: 55
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    #73

    May 29, 2020, 05:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    He sees the world dealing with the pandemic he inflicted on the world and is taking the opportunity to flex China's muscle everywhere . South China Sea ,Hong Kong Taiwan even India .

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...sions-escalate

    India is not backing down . The people of Hong Kong are fighting a valiant fight . The Chinese will underestimate the protest . Hong Kong is built perfectly for urban street action .
    Here's another link from The Guardian you may be interested in.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ealth-disaster
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #74

    May 29, 2020, 05:23 PM
    The Chinese are ambitious for sure Tom, and very capable of operating on many fronts, and they know exactly what they are doing, which is why the dufus bringing them public is not a good idea in their own back yard. Looks tough by the dufus, but we both know it's hot air and a waste. Everybody owes the Chinese money, even us. Even the Indians ain't gonna kiss our arses to help the dufus gain any leverage even if they do want to push back against China which will only take you so far. LOL, they don't have to do anything in Hong Kong immediately, and will be ready to move at their own pace.

    Hong Kong is but a secondary piece on the world chess board, and moving to capture her will be a rather expensive trade and put us way out of position on the rest of the board. The dufus is playing checkers though, and not that good at it.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #75

    May 29, 2020, 05:32 PM
    HK is a Pawn in the Chinese game, whereas Taiwan is a Rook. The opposing King is threatened, but China has moved a Knight against India, a great deal is in play. The Chinese only have to use soft power against HK, knowing that things will settle to the new reality in the long run, this is not a one week war, it is a thousand year war and China won HK sometime ago. Ask yourself; what is Xi hiding while attention is on HK?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,741, Reputation: 341
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    #76

    May 29, 2020, 06:13 PM
    The Rhineland was just a pawn . And Germany was justified taking it . After all it was their own territory and it was not worth a drop of blood to oppose . "Ask yourself; what was Hitler hiding ?"
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #77

    May 29, 2020, 07:46 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The Rhineland was just a pawn . And Germany was justified taking it . After all it was their own territory and it was not worth a drop of blood to oppose . "Ask yourself; what was Hitler hiding ?"
    Hitler wasn't hiding, he had already told everyone his intentions in miem kampf, he rose to power on the idea of making Germany great again, now I wonder where we have heard this idea. Xi is working on making China great again, even as Trump attempts the same for the US. You want to oppose Xi while endorsing Trump. Trump is opposing Xi in a war of words and tariffs. The US opposed Japan and it led to war. History repeats itsself because afterall it is human nature
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,741, Reputation: 341
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    #78

    May 30, 2020, 01:53 AM
    so you are saying that the Chamberlain model was a success ? Oh yeah Xi has made it very clear what his intentions are .Hitler had Mein Kamph and no one paid attention. Xi has his 2050 plan and no one will pay attention.
    You guys focus on Trump and the world goes nuts when he suggests travel bans and dealing with China's uneven trade practices . You cry foul when Trump suggests temporary travel bans from Muslim nations .Then you turn a blind eye to the Chinese systematic slaughter of their Muslim population . Yeah I see history repeating . There were Hitler apologists here and around the world in the late 1930s too .We had our Charles Lindbergh's Now we have our quid pro Joe China apologists; and you have your KRudd's .
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,741, Reputation: 341
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    #79

    May 30, 2020, 02:40 AM
    ok ,I'll go with your Japan analogy . The US ,specifically Teddy Roosevelt ,made a mistake at the end of the 19th century in encouraging Japan to become a regional and imperial power . We were late to see our mistake .The same can be said for US Chinese relations since Nixon. 1999 Chinese colonels Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui gave us the blueprint for Chinese unrestricted warfare. They predicted the attack on the World Trade Centers 3 years before it happened .The Chinese have laid out similar blue prints for economic dominance followed by military,political , and cultural dominance ,
    Trump saw this coming years before he ran for President . He certainly saw it before me. I was all in on China because they were also moving towards representative government and liberty for the people. Xi is an extreme Maoist and makes no pretense where he is taking China and eventually the world .
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #80

    May 30, 2020, 04:50 AM
    You don't have to convince me that Xi and Vlad, (Remember him?) and quite a few others have conquest and domination on their minds, history is littered with such people. They always hide behind sovereignty or some iteration of manifest destiny to further their own power. That and a good army. Step back though Tom, and see the pattern of our own private business always finding a way to facilitate these fools, because we are doing the same thing.

    Show me a dictator and I'll show you an American company doing business with them. Treaty to follow. We dropped the ball when we nixed the Asian trade agreements, and opted for feckless sanctions instead.

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