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    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #41

    Feb 16, 2020, 06:53 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Nope. Watch the videos of actual shootings. The crowd is spooked and running wildly every which way whether it's because of gunshots or backfires.
    If you said something succinctly then your comments might be better understood
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #42

    Feb 16, 2020, 07:30 PM
    WG, you are talking about mass shootings. The vast, vast majority of gun killings in the U.S. are not mass shootings, and in those cases the identity of the bad guy is very plain. But even in mass shootings, the ID of the bad guy can be very obvious. Just refer to the recent church shooting in which the death toll would have been enormous if not for armed and capable church members.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #43

    Feb 16, 2020, 08:34 PM
    Jlisenbe: No, you and I MUST BE FOULED-UP/WRONGHEADED in our thinking: I guess we are just supposed to be victims....sheep led to the slaughter....we shouldn't defend ourselves: NO THANK YOU! I have every intention of defending myself and protecting my family and what is mine....waiting for Law Enforcement to "arrive" whenever they see fit just isn't going to pass the requirements of my standards.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #44

    Feb 16, 2020, 08:40 PM
    Vac, that's a really good point about police wait time. We had a country store robbed at gun point (bad guy easy to ID) one night a couple of years ago. They locked the employees in a room at the back. One of them had a cell phone and called the police. Twenty minutes later they finally arrived at the scene of an armed robbery. There were only two deputies on patrol for the entire county that night and neither one was nearby.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #45

    Feb 17, 2020, 06:42 AM
    jlisenbe: Perfect example! And that story had a "good ending" because no one was killed, I assume? But there are many more stories where the ending is not so good.

    In the county where I grew up, the father a boy I went all through school with ran an ABC store....one rainy Saturday night, two men entered the store and immediately started firing at him behind the counter...bulletproof glass saved his life and he was able to retrieve his shotgun and killed both of them: These vermin would never rob any more stores or hurt anyone ever again....even after all of that, it took the Sheriff's Office 20+ minutes to get to the store.

    IF YOU AREN'T ARMED, YOU ARE A VICTIM WAITING TO HAPPEN.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #46

    Feb 17, 2020, 06:53 AM
    LOL, Vac the shotgun didn't save him, the bullet proof glass did, as even those with guns can have the drop pulled on them with a well planned ambush and that lesson should not be lost. Doesn't it count that even law officers can be ambushed and killed, and regretably have been?
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #47

    Feb 17, 2020, 10:52 AM
    Talaniman: No doubt, you are right about the bulletproof glass giving the guy the initial "survivability" and you are also correct about the ambush potential for even those with guns....however, even the bad guys fear things...they don't like taking on people who can fight back...they don't like being shot at: If they know that an intended victim "MAY" be armed, the normally don't want to risk the damages of losing a gunfight: The capacity to sling lead back at the bad guys is a strong deterrent to them initiating their perpetrations....why attack a "hardened/armed" target when there are plenty of "soft/unarmed" targets.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,894, Reputation: 5430
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    #48

    Feb 17, 2020, 11:20 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    Talaniman: No doubt, you are right about the bulletproof glass giving the guy the initial "survivability" and you are also correct about the ambush potential for even those with guns....however, even the bad guys fear things...they don't like taking on people who can fight back...they don't like being shot at: If they know that an intended victim "MAY" be armed, the normally don't want to risk the damages of losing a gunfight: The capacity to sling lead back at the bad guys is a strong deterrent to them initiating their perpetrations....why attack a "hardened/armed" target when there are plenty of "soft/unarmed" targets.
    C'mon, V7. The shooter often kills himself or sticks around long enough to be killed by law enforcement. It's a suicide mission; he knows he probably won't get out alive.

    He's not a "bad guy" but a very miserable maybe mentally ill person who has endured bullying or child abuse or mistreatment of some kind.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #49

    Feb 17, 2020, 02:03 PM
    The shooter often kills himself or sticks around long enough to be killed by law enforcement. It's a suicide mission; he knows he probably won't get out alive.
    In many shootings, the perp is never found. So much for being on a suicide mission.

    He's not a "bad guy" but a very miserable maybe mentally ill person who has endured bullying or child abuse or mistreatment of some kind.
    How do you know that?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,894, Reputation: 5430
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    #50

    Feb 17, 2020, 02:37 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    In many shootings, the perp is never found. So much for being on a suicide mission.
    What are you smokin', Willis???

    Aren't we talking about mass shootings? -- Las Vegas, the Charleston, SC church, Sandy Hook, cf. the list on Wikipedia (link posted in #40).

    How do you know that?
    I read the newspapers, listen to news reports, and always look for the outcome and motive.

    Please post the list of shootings (mass murders) committed by shooters who walked/ran away.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #51

    Feb 17, 2020, 04:01 PM
    Would six thousand unsolved murders in one year be enough for you? I guess you forgot to read about them. In your lovely city of Chicago, it is well over half that go unsolved.

    https://nypost.com/2018/09/25/a-shoc...ved-last-year/

    Chicago figures: https://patch.com/illinois/chicago/h...solved-chicago

    As to the topic, it did not begin on 40 but on 31 when Vac posted, "Talaniman: Concealed Carry or Carry In Plain Sight: It you step into the "WORLD", anywhere in this world, you are putting yourself at SOME level of risk....but your home should not be a danger zone, it should be where you are protected. What is for certain is that Law Enforcement is going to be an hour late and a dollar short...so, if you're waiting on BLUE, you are backing up."

    Now he was plainly speaking of protecting his home, but you then rather hysterically (my opinion) replied, "And how many innocent people will you shoot in the chaotic crowd that results? The bad guys aren't going to stand around, waving their arms in the air, and wait while you unpack your heat."

    Vac had it right. The vast majority of shootings are not mass shootings. If someone is breaking into my home, I will be armed and ready to protect my wife and me. Hopefully it never happens.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,894, Reputation: 5430
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    #52

    Feb 17, 2020, 04:07 PM
    The conversation is about mass shootings.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #53

    Feb 17, 2020, 04:15 PM
    It is in your head. It's not for the rest of us.

    How about those unsolved Chicago murders? What was the figure..74% unsolved? Did you read about them?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #54

    Feb 17, 2020, 04:37 PM
    I can certainly understand having a secure home, but who stays home all the time with guns a ready? What of the times you are away from home? I ask that and got no answer. Instead you attack the poster! That getting to be a tired tactic.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #55

    Feb 17, 2020, 06:21 PM
    How did I attack the poster, by asking a question? You don't think WG is capable of answering a question?

    You didn't ask me about being away from home. In our state we have open carry and it seems to have worked well. There could also be concealed carry.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #56

    Feb 17, 2020, 07:40 PM
    I conceal carry when out and about and I don't respect the demands of any establishment that says no firearms allowed, as far as I am concerned, they are talking to the wall. It is like this, I won't parse words: Sure, I can CALL the Police but I am not going to RELY UPON THE POLICE AS MY SOLE SOURCE OF PROTECTION.....Beyond the laws made by mere men, I have the GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO SELF-PROTECTION.....AND, I WILL NOT ASK FOR PERMISSION TO PROTECT MYSELF OR WORRY ABOUT SOME DAMNED MAN MADE LAW THAT SAYS ITS O.K. OR NOT O.K. TO PROTECT MYSELF. Like the old saying "I would much rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

    I remember some years ago, during some crisis in N.Y., that Georgia was going to send Policemen and State Troopers to support the N.Y. Officers: N.Y. said fine but you can't allow your officers to bring their firearms....so Georgia rescinded their offer.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #57

    Feb 18, 2020, 04:52 AM
    You could fit in my family very easily Vac, and you at least see the value of protecting your own, and like most gun owners respecting that power of life and death, and I have no problem there, even as you have to understand that a guy with a gun cannot be readily recognized as a good guy, or bad guy. If a trained cop can make a wrong judgement, so can anybody right? Nobody should shoot first or ask questions later and if you do, you better be all the way right or be judged by those 12 you mentioned before. Same for cop and citizens. There are always questions later! I'll spare you the stories of all the ones who got it wrong and got away with it.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #58

    Feb 18, 2020, 05:03 AM
    Nobody should shoot first or ask questions later and if you do, you better be all the way right or be judged by those 12 you mentioned before. Same for cop and citizens. There are always questions later!
    I would agree with that. I don't carry, concealed or otherwise, but I have no problem with those who do. I am prepared to "defend my castle", but I hope I never have to. I don't think I'm going to shoot someone to protect my television.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #59

    Feb 18, 2020, 05:29 AM
    Talaniman & jlisenbe: Absolutely correct, carrying a gun LEGALLY entitles you to no more rights than anyone else and also confers a whole hell of a lot of responsibility, so you are ON THE HOOK, potentially, any time you use it but, hopefully, you get to stay alive (main point). Like you said, Talaniman: You better be right! No, the "Death Zone" for anyone is when they breach the threshold of your doorway...at that point they are consciously taking their lives into their own hands and are challenging the sanctity of your abode with bad intentions, so this is a different level scenario....Southern States have laws where homeowners are pretty much in the clear on intruder confrontation and the results thereof...where it gets murky is IF you know the intruder or if the intruder is a family member, no matter how distant...those can be challenges. Handguns connote a different aspect amongst all guns because of their potential for concealment potential and regulations for them are more stringent for them, accordingly, as they should be. I am an advocate for women learning to use guns in self-defense but they must be competent users because to pull a gun means that you must be willing to use it and you shouldn't pull if you aren't willing to use it....and that goes for anyone.

    A gun is a firearm, not a weapon: A gun only becomes a weapon once INTENT is established...same for a brick or a pipe!
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #60

    Feb 18, 2020, 07:05 AM
    LOL, we had similar laws in the north Vac for gunowners and home owners, and if you shoot an intruder outside you better drag him inside before you call a cop. Yeah that breach the threshold law applies everywhere not just in the south my friend. It's that fear for my life crap outside the home that riles me. No abuses possible there? Scared cops use that to shoot first and figure it out later. Plenty of abuses there over the years. Don't get me wrong we all have fear, but you cross the line when it's unfounded.

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