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    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #61

    Feb 8, 2020, 06:52 AM
    The last global financial meltdown in 2008 was about greedy basturds over valuing a bunch of junk and screwing everybody, but we've put safeguards in since then. I can agree with you Vac to a great extent but a cabal isn't as accurate as just plain greedy. You think a few high rollers at the top can't get around the rules and manipulate things for MO' MONEY? They do it all the time, LEGALLY, by buying elected officials to write the rules. For sure we know as facts that poor people can't screw up the markets so that only leaves rich people with banks and insurance companies they control.

    It's just logical sense backed by a history of data. I rate you a mostly RIGHT on your opinion dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    These days you just don't know, bots make the trends and respond to them before you even know what is happening
    Ordinary people are always the last to know and the ones hit the hardest, and pay for rich guy screw ups.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #62

    Feb 8, 2020, 01:31 PM
    They do it all the time, LEGALLY, by buying elected officials to write the rules
    So their elected officials that they bought came up with a tax plan in which the top 20% of income earners pay nearly all of the income taxes? Interesting.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #63

    Feb 8, 2020, 02:00 PM
    Who has all the wealth and most of the money? Who has tax shelters and loopholes to hide the wealth? How do you pay for that huge defense budget? For that matter how is your highways paid for? For that matter who fixes the potholes and who tore them up?

    Let's also make the difference between individual tax, corporate tax, and tax exempt groups.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #64

    Feb 8, 2020, 03:17 PM
    Who has all the wealth and most of the money? Who has tax shelters and loopholes to hide the wealth? How do you pay for that huge defense budget? For that matter how is your highways paid for? For that matter who fixes the potholes and who tore them up?
    Still doesn't explain how all those rich folk bought and paid for elected officials who then proceeded to come up with an income tax plan that has them paying for over 85% of it and the bottom 50% paying next to nothing. If that's what their bought and paid for elected officials did for them, then they need to buy some different ones.

    As to how all those items get paid for, they get paid for largely by wealthy people, so what are you complaining about?

    Let's also make the difference between individual tax, corporate tax, and tax exempt groups.
    Why? What's your point? You mean tax exempt groups like the NAACP, the SCLC, or BLM?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #65

    Feb 8, 2020, 05:25 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Still doesn't explain how all those rich folk bought and paid for elected officials who then proceeded to come up with an income tax plan that has them paying for over 85% of it and the bottom 50% paying next to nothing. If that's what their bought and paid for elected officials did for them, then they need to buy some different ones.
    Neat trick ain't it? Devil is in the details as they only get taxed on half their income, and that's 85% of tax revenues while poor people have an average of 20% deducted before they get a check and get it back the next year. So rich guys keep all their money until they have to pay, and poor people pay get theirs back after the rich guys pay.

    As to how all those items get paid for, they get paid for largely by wealthy people, so what are you complaining about?
    You complain about how much YOU pay to poor people so I can't complain too?

    Why? What's your point? You mean tax exempt groups like the NAACP, the SCLC, or BLM?
    Don't forget your church too and all the ones you visit. That's my point, you're always beetching about what everybody else does while you're doing it too!
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #66

    Feb 8, 2020, 06:16 PM
    Neat trick ain't it? Devil is in the details as they only get taxed on half their income, and that's 85% of tax revenues while poor people have an average of 20% deducted before they get a check and get it back the next year. So rich guys keep all their money until they have to pay, and poor people pay get theirs back after the rich guys pay.
    OK. How else can it be said? 85% is 85% no matter how much you try to muddy the water. The rich keep their money until, of course, it is taken from them. The other 80% of us can choose to withhold nearly nothing if we want and that is what I suggest to people. To do otherwise is to give the government an interest free loan. The solution is simply to not do it. Save up what you will need to pay the feds. You can keep the interest yourself.

    You complain about how much YOU pay to poor people so I can't complain too?
    You weren't complaining at all. I was not complaining. You asked a question and I answered it.
    Don't forget your church too and all the ones you visit. That's my point, you're always beetching about what everybody else does while you're doing it too!
    I didn't bring up tax exempt organizations, you did, so if anyone was "belching" it was you. If it was up to me, there would be no charitable deductions. We would all pay a percentage of our income and it would be keyed to federal spending. There would be no federal debt. Once people had to begin to pony up and actually pay for what the feds were spending, there would be a public outcry and spending would be slashed. It would severely curtail the deceptive abilities of our corrupt politicians.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #67

    Feb 8, 2020, 07:57 PM
    I didn't bring up tax exempt organizations, you did, so if anyone was "belching" it was you. If it was up to me, there would be no charitable deductions. We would all pay a percentage of our income and it would be keyed to federal spending. There would be no federal debt. Once people had to begin to pony up and actually pay for what the feds were spending, there would be a public outcry and spending would be slashed. It would severely curtail the deceptive abilities of our corrupt politicians.
    What is needed is to curb waste and greed. There are nations of the world who have tax systems very different and yet they can balance budgets and have welfare systems, universal health care and much more. When you remove the capitalist greed from the system you get a better result
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #68

    Feb 8, 2020, 08:09 PM
    What is needed is to curb waste and greed. There are nations of the world who have tax systems very different and yet they can balance budgets and have welfare systems, universal health care and much more. When you remove the capitalist greed from the system you get a better result
    You will never get rid of waste and greed. Most of the advanced nations of the world, including yours, have incurred huge amounts of debt. Japan and England are among the worst. I don't agree that capitalist greed (whatever that is) is the problem. The problem is the idea, widespread, that we can have our cake and eat it too. We can spend, spend, spend and borrow money year after year to makeup the shortfall. It's a disaster in the making. As long as we tolerate these corrupt and dishonest pols, we will have this.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #69

    Feb 8, 2020, 09:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You will never get rid of waste and greed. Most of the advanced nations of the world, including yours, have incurred huge amounts of debt. Japan and England are among the worst. I don't agree that capitalist greed (whatever that is) is the problem. The problem is the idea, widespread, that we can have our cake and eat it too. We can spend, spend, spend and borrow money year after year to makeup the shortfall. It's a disaster in the making. As long as we tolerate these corrupt and dishonest pols, we will have this.
    M<y national has learned, balanced budgets, and a gradual reduction of debt. You seem to have cornered the market of greedy politicians
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #70

    Feb 8, 2020, 09:41 PM
    Paraclete: Yes, we have plenty of greedy politicians, very true......but these other nations you speak of, they have INCREDIBLY high tax rates on ALL citizens: Therein lies the tradeoff, of sorts: You can have the balanced budget anytime you want but be prepared to pay 60% of your earnings in taxes. In the U.S., we would have a revolution over 60% taxes: Hell, the U.S. fought a revolution over none other than TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #71

    Feb 9, 2020, 05:41 AM
    I get what you're trying to say Vac. Easy to be suspicious of big money and the places they play and the things they do to make that big money. As far as the country goes though the government doesn't have to balance the books or even show a profit, just be responsible and responsive enough to address the needs of it's citizens, and make an environment for commerce so we can all share in EARNING prosperity, to enjoy our freedom and liberty paid for with blood, sweat, and treasure. Definitely pay as you go until you die kind of proposition. Keep working till you do.

    The dufus got it right! Give the wingers a chance to blow off some steam, and think they got it like that, and can finally enjoy the show. They will always cherish the memories of a good time to wipe out the decades of hollering and screaming and being pushed aside, called names and being ignored, while the world around them has changed greatly. For them these are their good old days!

    Let 'em have it while it lasts.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #72

    Feb 9, 2020, 05:54 AM
    M<y national has learned, balanced budgets, and a gradual reduction of debt. You seem to have cornered the market of greedy politicians
    Your national debt, as a percentage of GDP, has risen from 10% to well over 30% just in the last ten years, so you'll have to pardon me if I don't want to use Australia as an example of national discipline. https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicato...of-nominal-gdp
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #73

    Feb 9, 2020, 05:59 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Your national debt, as a percentage of GDP, has risen from 10% to well over 30% just in the last ten years, so you'll have to pardon me if I don't want to use Australia as an example of national discipline. https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicato...of-nominal-gdp
    We have you and your unregulated banking system to thank for that, it was called the GFC, but in ten years we have clawed the budget back into surplus and now will work on reducing the debt, so yes you can use our national discipline as an example, whereas you have no national discipline, you just spend like there is no tomorrow
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #74

    Feb 9, 2020, 06:13 AM
    We have you and your unregulated banking system to thank for that, it was called the GFC, but in ten years we have clawed the budget back into surplus and now will work on reducing the debt, so yes you can use our national discipline as an example, whereas you have no national discipline, you just spend like there is no tomorrow
    No thanks. I want us to do much better than tripling our national debt and then wanting to blame someone else for it. We'll look elsewhere for a good model.

    Our banking system is not unregulated. In fact, it was federal regulations that prompted the mortgage crisis you refer to.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #75

    Feb 9, 2020, 08:03 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    No thanks. I want us to do much better than tripling our national debt and then wanting to blame someone else for it. We'll look elsewhere for a good model.
    I would hope we figure it out ourselves, and we probably will eventually. I find countries are very unique to themselves and what works over there may not apply over here for whatever reason.

    Our banking system is not unregulated. In fact, it was federal regulations that prompted the mortgage crisis you refer to.
    A blanket statement that I would hope you can explain, because the mortgage crisis had noting to do with what banks did, even though those places with tighter regulations didn't suffer as much.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #76

    Feb 9, 2020, 08:18 AM
    A blanket statement that I would hope you can explain, because the mortgage crisis had noting to do with what banks did, even though those places with tighter regulations didn't suffer as much.
    The feds had mandated the banks open up mortgages to more high risk families. When the economy went south and the values of houses plummeted, a lot of families were upside down in their mortgages and couldn't make the payments. The banks ended up with a lot of houses and no way to pay for them. That was not all of the crisis, but it was the major contributing factor.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #77

    Feb 9, 2020, 09:53 AM
    Anyone has trouble with a mortgage payment if they lose a revenue source, got nothing to do with whatever value the mortgage is at any particular time. At risk buyers typically young with enough income and no down payments got caught in the can't pay the balloon note in leu of a down payment, that came due at a variable interest rate often after 2-5 years. The plan was let the banks handle the details instead of mandate a policy and procedure those young high risk people could handle. It didn't help that the homes were over valued from the start either (Just my opinion though), and sold to foreign banks and investors as a derivative cloaked in very attractive bundles. Under regulation is what busted the housing boom bubble, and took the whole world with it.

    https://ukessaynow.com/blog/causes-o...-crash-of-2008

    To summarize, the housing bubble is to blame for the 2008 economic crisis. The massive recession was triggered by the collapse in house prices, which in turn were caused by ill-considered mortgage policies and the lack of governmental regulation. Banks offered opportunities for people to get affordable houses, so it is difficult to blame regular citizens for being too improvident. Financial institutions and experts should have foreseen the adverse consequences of the housing market policies, but it is still debated whether anything could be done to prevent the crisis when its first signs emerged.


    Good idea, very bad disastrous execution.

    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #78

    Feb 9, 2020, 02:28 PM
    All this time I thought it was Barney "The Male Page Chaser" Frank that screwed up Fannie Mae so bad and caused the housing mess!
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #79

    Feb 9, 2020, 03:12 PM
    Anyone has trouble with a mortgage payment if they lose a revenue source, got nothing to do with whatever value the mortgage is at any particular time.
    Of course it does. If your house has gone up in value, then you can sell the house, pay off the mortgage, and hopefully have some equity left over with no damage to your credit score. If you're upside down, then you're stuck and the mortgage company is stuck. And if you multiply that by millions, then you have a financial crisis caused, in large measure , by the idiots in the federal government. But there is hope!

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...eland-security
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #80

    Feb 9, 2020, 04:53 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    , then you have a financial crisis caused, in large measure , by the idiots in the federal government. But there is hope!
    which idiots were they I wonder? the idiots who would do it again if they get the chance?

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