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    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,296, Reputation: 154
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    #121

    Jan 15, 2020, 04:26 AM
    That's nonsense and you know it. You were trying to support this statement: "Now dry your eyes and do what Jesus tell you to do." You then listed four passages, but only one of them was what Jesus said. But even at that, none of them (all of which did indeed come from God's Word) instructed you to go out and force your fellow citizens to engage in charity. All four of them were instructing YOU to engage in charity. It's just like I have said a million times here, this is all just the typical liberal dem philosophy of wanting to claim the moral high ground because you force other people to contribute to your favorite charity.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #122

    Jan 15, 2020, 05:14 AM
    How am I forcing you to do anything? Liberals aren't making you do anything either, at least not in the repub dominated state you live in. Most states are repub lead, so why are liberals your problem, and not repubs? Bet even you don't know what you're talking about, you just want to blame your ills and pet peeves on liberals. It's no wonder you figured out a way to let yourself off the hook and not obey the rules of your own bible. So go do what your bible tells you to do and quit crying and making excuses why you can't and blaming it on liberals.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #123

    Jan 15, 2020, 05:26 AM
    Cut out the guilt trips Tal
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #124

    Jan 15, 2020, 06:10 AM
    The U.S. gives more to charity worldwide than any other nation. On top of that, every illegal alien we take into the U.S. is "A CHARITY CASE"....I think the U.S. does enough and, it can be argued, too much in terms of charity.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #125

    Jan 15, 2020, 06:56 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    Cut out the guilt trips Tal
    No guilt trip Clete, just calling out the excuses and hypocrisy of gospel spouting self righteous people who don't practice what they preach and blaming it on someone else like you're trying to do accusing me of guilt tripping JL.
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    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #126

    Jan 15, 2020, 07:06 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    The U.S. gives more to charity worldwide than any other nation. On top of that, every illegal alien we take into the U.S. is "A CHARITY CASE"....I think the U.S. does enough and, it can be argued, too much in terms of charity.
    Okay let's argue if it's too much and while we're at it why even use the term illegal alien when there is NOTHING illegal about asylum seekers. I guess we don't have to argue about those folks do we? How can we ignore that those charity cases take any job they can get and pay taxes which they cannot benefit from. That's the myth name calling tries to hide from the narrative. That way it's okay to exploit the brown people from the south and treat them like criminals, and animals.
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    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #127

    Jan 15, 2020, 08:24 AM
    Talaniman: No, I don't support treating anyone like a criminal unless they are criminal and certainly don't like the idea of treating humanity like animals: We've seen enough of that in the last 100 years to last the next 1000 years. I have been round and round with my own feeling about the "brown people" as you call them: I don't like it that they just walk across our border uninvited....but, I generally like them as a people, or at least the ones I know and have worked with....and it would make it easier for me to make a stronger opinion if I didn't like them....so I come back around to this: In the most general terms, these "brown people" are fine, upstanding people of mostly high moral character.....most of them are strong Catholics and I am Catholic: You see where that puts me? I can't deny that I would prefer to help them more than "other" immigrants, I am biased through faith and I know what Jesus said and my wife reminds me often. I JUST WISH THAT THEY WOULD GO THROUGH PROPER CHANNELS AND PROCEDURES! Why does this have to be so hard? It took my wife 10 years to become a U.S. Citizen...her girlfriends the same...I would prefer that the RULES be applied EQUALLY TO ALL AND IN ALL CASES....Its not fair to tug at our heartstrings because it interferes with good business sense.....my problem is that, in this case, I have trouble separating my religious beliefs/right and wrong and business...secular decision taking is not possible in the case of what is happening on the Southern Border, at least I am not capable of it.
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    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #128

    Jan 15, 2020, 09:18 AM
    I appreciate your honesty Vac, and all I have ever advocated was a fair humane process, for everybody. True some have been migrating north from the south for many decades and not just from Mexico, but many countries and in many cases have family here already, and despite the hype obey the laws and report as directed and basically keep within the law. Many get deported after going through that lawful process, and doing as directed. I have a problem though with the present administration making this a disgusting spectacle however with the exaggerated rhetoric and antics that I don't consider good behavior at all and that's what I am really against.

    I just don't think that's necessary or appropriate from this country, and I believe we are better than that. Separating kids from parents and packing people together like sardines? Naw man just cannot abide by that kind of behavior. I mean in a supposed Christian country can't we at least do things in a Christian way and not act like Nazis? Am I asking to much?
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #129

    Jan 15, 2020, 12:20 PM
    Talaniman: The nerve for me is the incidences I have seen lately where U.S. Military Veterans have be put up for deportation: That is utterly intolerable to me and I can not find any position where I leverage my own conscious to support that kind of B.S.: Veterans have EARNED more rights than the rest of us than those of us that are not veterans (my personal opinion) and, as such, are not to be fooled with: Its a disgusting proposition to take a man who has served this country and then relegate him to so much garbage as to "send him packing" when his service is completed.

    Its a dynamic problem and I wish it were an entirely "legal question" but to pawn something like this off and make it a sterile/clinical type decision is, to me, near impossible: I find myself too emotionally invested to make sound, reasonable decisions.

    It is much easier to identify truly evil enemies, demonize those evil enemies, and convince yourself of what you must do to protect yourself and others.....it is harder to get psyched-up that way against the "brown people" at the border, at least for me anyway, especially when I know that they are, for the greatest majority, simply seeking a better life.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #130

    Jan 15, 2020, 02:24 PM
    why is this reduced to a question of race, it is also a question of culture yet you continually refer to race, it comes down to sovereignty, people cannot just wander across a national border at will
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,296, Reputation: 154
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    #131

    Jan 15, 2020, 03:52 PM
    people cannot just wander across a national border at will
    Exactly correct.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #132

    Jan 15, 2020, 04:19 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    why is this reduced to a question of race, it is also a question of culture yet you continually refer to race, it comes down to sovereignty, people cannot just wander across a national border at will
    Said the migrant who is surrounded by water. With all due respect it's rather an insult that you think you can define our sovereignty which in due course has changed over the decades and at one time was a common thing until someone decide it wasn't. Some boat people were allowed and some were not and has resulted into a death penalty of others. We even rounded up and incarcerated some races for nothing else other than where they came from, and while culture is a factor race has always been the biggest factor. I don't remember Germans being hauled off to concentration camps during the war but the Japanese were.

    As Vac has said and I agree it's disgusting to deport those that swear their lives to defend the country, and that goes for the families they leave behind, many subject to the same deportation order, and cruel as all get out to deport a kid or young adult who didn't have any choice as they were growing up and only know ONE home in their lives. If that's not just plain cruel then I don't know what is. Such unchristian behavior makes me sick, and represents a step back from humanity, not forward. So spare me please the sermon on it's about culture not race! It's always about race in this country.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #133

    Jan 15, 2020, 06:57 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    It's always about race in this country.

    Yes that would seem to be so, you are not colour blind. You want to say I am a migrant, but we are all migrants. I have not been a migrant for six, or maybe more generations, so my perspective might be different to some.

    It is not cruel to deny entry to those who would flout your laws, you accept those who patiently wait in line and follow the laws, so do we. We temper acceptance with the ability to absorb the numbers, you apparently do not. Do not bring Christianity into this since yours is a secular nation and the laws that force such action are secular
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,296, Reputation: 154
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    #134

    Jan 15, 2020, 07:32 PM
    It's always about race in this country.
    It is for liberal dems. For the rest of the country, race is mentioned rarely. It is not an issue.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #135

    Jan 15, 2020, 08:38 PM
    You forgot the ultra conservative good old boys and the white supremists that make up the dufus/repub base. Race always matters to them.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #136

    Jan 15, 2020, 08:57 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    Yes that would seem to be so, you are not colour blind. You want to say I am a migrant, but we are all migrants. I have not been a migrant for six, or maybe more generations, so my perspective might be different to some.
    Most migrants think of themselves as natives after a few generations of blood, sweat, tears, and struggle, and lets not leave out the perks of conquest. If this is the only home you know about then you would also feel that way especially if your culture and heritage were brutally beaten out of you for a few generations.

    It is not cruel to deny entry to those who would flout your laws, you accept those who patiently wait in line and follow the laws, so do we. We temper acceptance with the ability to absorb the numbers, you apparently do not. Do not bring Christianity into this since yours is a secular nation and the laws that force such action are secular
    There are plenty of laws that call for a humane process, and none of them includes separation of kids from parents or family, or incarceration in unhealthy conditions. Those are policies to deter that has nothing to do with the law, and more to do with this administration. They all claim to be Christians so it very well should be included in the conversation. What, you don't think Christians can be cruel?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,296, Reputation: 154
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    #137

    Jan 16, 2020, 04:13 AM
    You forgot the ultra conservative good old boys and the white supremists that make up the dufus/repub base.
    Those are the very kind of mindless, hateful comments that are the reason we have become so divided. It's on the same level as saying that the dem base is all welfare moms who want a bigger govt check. Pathetic. I'm not a repub, but I know a lot of repubs. They don't obsess about race nearly as much as you do.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #138

    Jan 16, 2020, 06:51 AM
    The WWII Japanese were a special case and that case had a lot to do with what happened immediately after the Pearl Harbor attack: It was called the Niihau Incident where a downed Japanese Zero pilot and a resident man and wife of the island of Niihau conspired and went about killing off everyone on the island....the compelling part of this was that the man and wife of Japanese ancestry HAD NEVER BEEN TO JAPAN and chose to assist the Japanese pilot in the systematic murdering of their fellow citizens just because the pilot was of the same race (Japanese). The facts of this case were kept hush, hush because of the potential for wholesale bloodshed that may arise if the general stateside population found out about and went about killing the hell out of Japanese citizens. There were other incidents, too, of Japanese Americans supplying fuel to Japanese submarines....So, there was some "basis" for the incarceration of Japanese during WWII, it was not ALL just a xenophobic reaction perpetuated by evil Caucasians. All of this is part of the history record....but let's also state the other fact: The most highly decorated Army Unit of WWII was a unit entirely comprised of Japanese Americans that fought in Europe killing Nazis: in a weird twist, these Japanese had to "prove" their patriotism and they did in bunches.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #139

    Jan 16, 2020, 06:57 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Those are the very kind of mindless, hateful comments that are the reason we have become so divided. It's on the same level as saying that the dem base is all welfare moms who want a bigger govt check. Pathetic. I'm not a repub, but I know a lot of repubs. They don't obsess about race nearly as much as you do.

    I don't know if obssessed is an accurate description for the reality I live in, but being aware that these aforemention people exist and mean you no good, is crucial to the survival for many minorities. I don't know if denying their existence or minimizing their threat is a very healthy approach though. Sorry you took my comments so personally, and perhaps it's just because you don't feel as threatened by them as I do, but it does explain part of my attitude toward the dufus.

    Perhaps you should talk to your minority neighbors to get a better perspective of what you think is just an obsession. Actually I'm glad your experience with such people seems very limited.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #140

    Jan 16, 2020, 08:59 AM
    Talaniman: Not putting words in jlisenbe's mouth but I can assure you, as a fellow Southerner, we have an extraordinary amount of interaction with minorities and have had those interaction from very tender ages: Blacks were not people we read about or saw on TV or in televised sporting events: We went to school with them in great number, played with them, fought with them, ate with them, worked with them, and have prayed with them: Blacks are in no way strangers to us. And I can tell you that, generally speaking, almost always, the interactions between races in the South, at least in my time, have been good. Where a Southern man tends to get riled is when we are told that we are responsible for the any plight that exist in with the Black race or that we owe them anything or that the Black race may deserve certain "unalienable" privileges: Our generation of Southerners never owned Slaves (my ancestors weren't even here, honestly, at the time) and the idea we owe anything is not palatable.....I think most people, Southern or Northern, or where ever they may hail, would support the idea of removing all senses of "race" from all government documents and such.

    Race designation is, in and of itself, a very divisive descriptor...especially when you lead with it.....if we want real harmony amongst ethnicities, we should abandon it.

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