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    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #1

    Aug 24, 2019, 01:23 PM
    Is there a chance for real fascism?
    Can a legitimate Fascist government ever operate in TODAY'S world? I mean one that is organized and recognized as a true Fascist government....not trying to disguise itself as something else. It occurred to me that Fascism, in its pure form, may be the only antidote to a Marxist takeover in some areas of the world.
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    talaniman Posts: 54,318, Reputation: 10854
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    #2

    Aug 24, 2019, 01:58 PM
    I heard democracy works better than both though with greedy humans who can know.
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    #3

    Aug 24, 2019, 05:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    Can a legitimate Fascist government ever operate in the world? I mean one that is organized and recognized as a true Fascist government.

    Yes. Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Italy were both legitimate Fascist governments.
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    #4

    Aug 24, 2019, 06:07 PM
    Anthos: Meant to say TODAY'S world. I don't consider Nazi Germany to be true Fascist.
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    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,304, Reputation: 7692
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    #5

    Aug 24, 2019, 06:44 PM
    It will not use those words, it will be the "peoples" government, or something long those lines. And it will be bought in by the cheers of the people,

    Just look at the play books in Russia, China and more.
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    #6

    Aug 24, 2019, 07:19 PM
    In old Sovier Russia and in China today its Marxist/communist but I am talking about Fascism, which is the 180 degree opposite of communism.
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    #7

    Aug 24, 2019, 07:47 PM
    "Can a legitimate Fascist government ever operate in TODAY'S world? I mean one that is organized and recognized as a true Fascist government....not trying to disguise itself as something else." You do realize we are currently under a fascist regime? Read the description and see if you agree.

    "Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy...".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
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    #8

    Aug 24, 2019, 09:40 PM
    I don't think I agree with what you state here....but that is O.K., we don't have to agree on everything...….First off, you have to take an accounting of WHO/WHAT apparatus provides the definition of anything, in this case the definition of Fascism......Every opposing an apparatus, and when that apparatus is in a position to promote their favorite narrative, will try to "DEFINE" what they see as their main rival or, perhaps, what they fear....you see this throughout history. Also, those who win conflicts also are the ones who produce "the history"......nothing new there. Assigning the name Fascist or Fascism to anyone or anything you don't agree with is an old trick of the left and it is getting really old and getting really old really fast....people are awakening to this old, worn out tactic. And the assertion that we live under a Fascist form of government now is proven wrong by the very description of what you say Fascism is, isn't it? You know it cannot be a Fascist government because the media is certainly not suppressed: If anything, the media is +90% against Trump and, by the definition you have given, if this was a Fascist government, then the media would be beaten into submission or silenced: that is definitely not happening. You know a Fascist government isn't in power when that government permits a group call "Antifa" (anti-Fascist) to even exist at all, much less running around the streets causing chaos with rags covering their faces (you or I would probably be arrested if we walked around with covered faces but not Antifa....what gives?)…..Trump and his Administration may be many things but Fascist isn't one of them....they are very intelligent, however, and have achieved many things that those on the left side of the political spectrum did not think were possible and it looks like they are on the verge and precipice of accomplishing many more....the left is far removed from the pulse of the nation right now and they are becoming even farther removed from that pulse as they turn toward radicalized agendas.....the RIGHT, on the other hand, has a tremendous momentum not only in the U.S. but, also, around the world. The left follows outdated, antiquated ideologies (Bolshevism, socialism, Trotskyism, etc.) thinking that these are romantic ideals....the romance wore off these ideal somewhere back around 1950......the RIGHT follows more simple, more easy to understand, more enduring principles that control all that occurs within the universe in the form of NATURAL LAWS and THE LAWS OF NATURE: these are laws that will never "go out of style", age, or, effectively, be incorrect.
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    #9

    Aug 24, 2019, 11:05 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    I don't consider Nazi Germany to be true Fascist.

    You may consider it whatever you wish but history considers it Fascist.

    I see above that your preferences politically lean to the far right. That's fine, but may I make a suggestion? If you want people to read your comments, make an effort to use at least a minimum of correct punctuation and capitalization. Paragraphing instead of one large block of text would be helpful also.

    Style is enormously important when trying to get readers and to get a point across. The alternative is a brief scan followed by skipping the rest.
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    talaniman Posts: 54,318, Reputation: 10854
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    #10

    Aug 25, 2019, 04:57 AM
    Hello Vacuum7 Welcome to the boards. Nice right wing rant. I don't know how far right you are but everyone who opposes the words, antics, and behavior of the current administration as well as most of his policies is not a socialist, bolshevist, or any of those old euro designations that you subscribe for us. We don't support Antifa or think you righties support white supremacy, even without the hood. I know it's convenient for some to assign a label and rail against it, but most people are not monolithic in their thinking or lives, despite the fringe noise from both sides.

    Those old Euro terms mean nothing to me personally, except define points in history and are irrelevant, just as who runs the place left or right is irrelevant. I much prefer common sense efficiency and equal protection under the law applied in a fair manner to all. That doesn't make me a lefty loon, to just want to live my life in peace and freedom does it?

    I think it unrealistic for left or right to think they will dominate each other, a rather foolish notion and endeavor but there should be room to do as we please as individuals if we respect the right of others to do the same so forgive me if I miss the point of your rant, and cannot get in the weeds of those old terms you are throwing out, or assign them to strangers I have no clue about.

    Now if you want a good old fashion sometimes contentious debate you are in the right place. Paragraphs do help a lot though.
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    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #11

    Aug 25, 2019, 07:46 PM
    Athos: Love the feedback! You nailed me on the structure: I was wrongheaded on the composure of what I wrote, should have had more paragraphs: YOU WERE CORRECT, I WAS WRONG! I will try to do better going forward, and you are free to correct me on this at will (I look forward to it!).

    You have NO IDEA how long I have longed to have intelligent political dialogue with persons who I deem to be intelligent.....and that is not meant to be elitist at all but, rather, real world: ignorance abounds, as you well know. I honestly believe that through conversation and discussion you will change me, my opinions and views and, likewise, I will change you, your opinions and views IF JUST BY A LITTLE BIT! That is the nature of communication and also of not living life with blinders on! And we can both agree that that is an ingredient that is sadly lacking in todays "body politic".

    I never called you a name or labeled you a "leftist" of "Bolshevik" or "Marxist" and I WON'T. If you and your friends (I don't know if you are really friends or not) will let me enter the debate you have here, I promise to give you all respect and honor your opinions and not admonish you if your opinions are those other than mine. And I understand you have "been around" a lot longer than me, too, so I also defer to your "seniority" and honor that, as well. You guys have a good thing going on here and I want in on it....please!

    I think that you may have misunderstood my political leaning as being "Far Right"....and that is my fault because what I wrote came across that way...once I read it! What I really am is an "observer" of history and, as I think you must agree, we are in "historic times"! My political bent is libertarian in nature but I also, by that same nature, tend to believe in fairness and justness. I, personally, don't think that the current Administration is entirely good but I certainly don't believe it is entirely bad, either.....I don't believe the Trump Administration has gotten a fair shake since they have been in office: Media is clearly Anti-Trump and media is supposed to REPORT THE NEWS and not BE THE NEWS....their opinions are not to be put out as facts. The rhetoric about Trump just doesn't square with the facts about Trump. You know that it was not too awful long ago that a lot of the people claiming to despise Trump now were the same ones that were inviting him to their lavish parties and having him on their talk shows.....so, there is a dichotomy here that is unexplained.

    I also don't see why Fascism is painted as the epitome of evil when communism, which is responsible for more murdering than Fascism, is somehow romanticized as being acceptable. I just don't accept this as being normal in any way. I just seek balance in all this: Communism, in my opinion, is a shackle upon humanity. Fascism, in my opinion, just isn't as oppressive as Marxism......And I never, even for a minute, believe the Right's argument that Fascism is a "leftist" ideal, that assertion is entirely demeaning and ridiculous!
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    talaniman Posts: 54,318, Reputation: 10854
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    #12

    Aug 26, 2019, 06:49 AM
    Hello Vacuum7 welcome again. I told you it gets contentious around here, more often than not.

    I generally don't get caught up in labels, or I would take to heart that when a conservatives say liberals are evil it's the end of the world and vice versa. Few I have found are just one way or have the same ideology on every subject. Humans are too unique for that. I know all the old thinkers have vilified one thing or another and that still prevails somewhat, but for those that have not studied all those historic thinkers they have only opinions from life experiences and the influence of peers.

    Yeah the culture in the US hates communism and socialism and were taught that it's evil way back in the day, when more accurately it's the faces we put on those labels that we hate, like Chinese communism and Russian socialism, and what they do as our so called enemies. See the pattern? Politicians love to rally the troops around election time for votes, Just as our religious leaders need followers to be relevant, and gain power, control, and enough influence to keep it. Man's oldest institution. Influence and the more profit the better.

    So you see, it doesn't matter what you believe, or anyone for that matter, and nothing personal, but how it affects what people are doing in their everyday lives that matters. Just trying to explain and express why Marx and the boys are irrelevant to me. The price of coffee at 7-11 is much more important.

    In short, ancient man did his thing, and it's time modern man do his. So no worries, or apologies needed, because it is what it is. We just ain't turning the clock back to when you felt better about yourself, because it's not just about you or whatever group/tribe you identify with. Now smile for the birdie, and thanks for the paragraph.

    AND welcome.
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    #13

    Aug 26, 2019, 01:18 PM
    There's a lot in your post, so I'll reply piece by piece.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    Athos: Love the feedback! You nailed me on the structure: I was wrongheaded on the composure of what I wrote, should have had more paragraphs: YOU WERE CORRECT, I WAS WRONG! I will try to do better going forward, and you are free to correct me on this at will (I look forward to it!).
    Fair enough. Same goes for me.

    ...ignorance abounds...
    Sad, but true.

    let me enter the debate you have here..... so I also defer to your "seniority" and honor that, as well. You guys have a good thing going on here and I want in on it....
    Come on in. No deference needed or required.

    I think that you may have misunderstood my political leaning as being "Far Right"
    Possibly.

    I tend to believe in fairness and justness.
    So do we all.

    I, personally, don't think that the current Administration is entirely good but I certainly don't believe it is entirely bad, either.....
    Here's where the disagreement starts. I don't believe it is ENTIRELY bad. Just about 99% bad.

    I don't believe the Trump Administration has gotten a fair shake since they have been in office: Media is clearly Anti-Trump and media is supposed to REPORT THE NEWS and not BE THE NEWS....their opinions are not to be put out as facts. The rhetoric about Trump just doesn't square with the facts about Trump.
    Media is divided between straight reporting (facts) and commenting on the facts. Both are legitimate media roles. When Trump makes such outrageous comments on Twitter and is video'd speaking stupidly on the WH lawn, the media RECORDS those activities for the whole world to see. To show those things is a requirement of news reporting and is almost impossible to put anything but a truthful record which shows Trump at his most bizarre. That is not ANTI-TRUMP - it is Trump himself making his own record.

    You know that it was not too awful long ago that a lot of the people claiming to despise Trump now were the same ones that were inviting him to their lavish parties and having him on their talk shows.....so, there is a dichotomy here that is unexplained.
    Here's an explanation. The talk show Trump and lavish party Trump was when he was the Playboy of the Western World and feeding on his celebrity status. Like all narcissists he loves the spotlight. However, becoming president is something entirely different. From a silly celebrity, he has moved to a most serious position - and has enormous power. I'm sure I don't have to provide the details.

    Far more disturbing is how the Republicans who initially derided everything about him have become his sycophants for fear of losing their precious seats in Congress.

    I also don't see why Fascism is painted as the epitome of evil when communism, which is responsible for more murdering than Fascism, is somehow romanticized as being acceptable.
    (Later Edit - I misread this. Apologies. One is as evil as the other)

    (I deleted my offending paragraph - I had Fascism and Communism backwards)

    I just don't accept this as being normal in any way.
    Good.

    Communism, in my opinion, is a shackle upon humanity. Fascism, in my opinion, just isn't as oppressive as Marxism
    Tell that to the 12 million who were exterminated in Hitler's camps. Or the overall 50 million dead in WW2. Communism has its millions dead also, maybe even more, but that's no way to compare the ideologies. As Stalin said, "One death is a tragedy, a million dead is a statistic". The Nazis killed in a uniquely perverted way, so excusing them as less oppressive is strange, indeed.

    ......And I never, even for a minute, believe the Right's argument that Fascism is a "leftist" ideal, that assertion is entirely demeaning and ridiculous!
    It comes from the National "SOCIALISM" in the Nazi title. For some reason, a segment of the Right seems to think this means the Nazis were socialists. Not much can be done with these people.
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    #14

    Aug 26, 2019, 05:19 PM
    Talaniman: I so much thank you for your acceptance into the fray and the very warm welcome! When I tell you that I much appreciate the welcome, I mean it: I was so afraid we had gotten off on the wrong foot and I certainly wanted to correct that with you. I want to cultivate friends and not grow enemies!
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    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #15

    Aug 26, 2019, 05:45 PM
    Athos: You delineated you positions so well....I like your writing style.....I am not nearly as polished and to-the-point as you are....you are a few light years ahead of me in this glorious arena! You cornered me on several points here and, to be honest, I must acquiesce to most all of them: You convinced me on several points that I felt sure about but now I feel less sure......never had that happen before, at least not that elegantly.

    I do want to say that I believe Trump does much of what he does by design.....and that includes his Twitter rants......he's playing around, trying to evoke reactions out of followers and non-followers alike: Don't believe everything he says on Twitter!

    I don't want to discuss the murdering in WWII, its so surreal and so unbearable to think that a cultured people, like those Germans, could have done those things......I can't imagine members of my family doing those unspeakable things while saying "Gott Mit Uns" as justification.

    I also love that fact that you are the only person I know that understands that the Right is wrong in relating Fascism to the left side of the political spectrum...you know the difference but few, and none that I know of, actually do understand the difference!
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    #16

    Aug 26, 2019, 08:09 PM
    V - I agree Germany under Hitler is a difficult subject. It may be generations before we understand what it is in human nature that could have allowed such horrors in such a civilized society. Until then it remains a cautionary tale. "There but for the grace of God, go I".

    Anyway, you may want to check out Current Events here. It covers Trump and his politics, but much more. You seem like one who has wide interests so that site may be a good fit.

    Like Tal says, it can be contentious at times.
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    talaniman Posts: 54,318, Reputation: 10854
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    #17

    Aug 27, 2019, 03:00 AM
    Nazi Germany is an excellent example of a leader, saying one thing to the population, and doing another thing behind their backs. I think it's emblematic of how feckless leaders get away with murder, while the people are clueless. Seldom do we know of the atrocities of war until afterwards. You think the German people knew anything beyond what was told to them? That's why we must really be cautious assigning those labels to people who have no choice, but to follow these leaders who rule by fear and disinformation from their leaders, who have just enough flunkies around to carry out the leaders orders.

    The names changes, but the game is the same throughout mans history. Easy to see where those seeds of fear are easily planted in those social cultures with severe challenges exploited by a leader who captures the population with promises of raising his nation out of those challenges. That's the whole playbook of such power grabbers including this current US administration. Even Mussolini kept the trains running on time is the popular justification for his regime.

    Just as the "good economy" justifies all the current presidents actions that make many look the other way at the bad stuff. Yes Vac7 come on over to current events and tell us all about the fake news about this administration perpetrated by the lame stream media not telling us of all the good stuff that's been done by the du...oops...current administrator of hate, lies, and deceit.
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    #18

    Aug 27, 2019, 04:22 PM
    Talaniman: There are many times when a precedent is established by one side and the side that generated the precedent wished they had never created it in the first place because now it is used against them. I distinctly remember James Carville of the Clinton Administration saying "Nobody cares about Monica Lewinsky: ITS THE ECONOMY STUPID!" I know that the Democrats wish that line would go away.

    I know the media is lame.....what I don't know the answer to is the question of whether or not the lameness of the media is fixable.....ever! Today, the media is all about headlines, one-liners, and the announcement of the overused word "bombshell" stories, which are never bombshells. Trump. like him or not, has been able to keep the media off-balance with loads and loads of blurbs, tweets, and spectacular claims that the media chases like dogs fetching sticks except, when the dog returns with the stick just thrown, the owner has another stick about to be thrown.....the media cannot get traction with Trump. They used to call Clinton "Teflon Bill" but Trump has proven to be significantly slicker than Clinton, by far.

    What is for sure, in my mind, if the Democrats really want to regain the Executive Branch, they better hurry up and get organized! Clearly, they have lost the initiative to Trump and whether or not they can get it back is up to them and how bad they really want it. Chaos and the semblance of disorganization works for Trump.....it doesn't for the Democrats. More and more, I talk to people, people I only know in passing or complete strangers in transit, who are associating the Democrats with radicalism, either in terms of the candidates they are offering up or in terms of fringe groups, like Antifa and BLM, to whom they give, at minimum, verbal support. Democrats are pretty rudderless right now.
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    talaniman Posts: 54,318, Reputation: 10854
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    #19

    Aug 27, 2019, 11:53 PM
    That's fair enough since it is silly season and we have a large field of candidates none of which I would consider radical, nor none I would think associate with Antifa, which is a stretch but I suppose that's out there in loony land. I doubt it appears as rudderless once the field is winnowed down, and more dufus flaws and intransigence revealed. How long can repubs remain silent on his antics? It's not a good look taking money from HHS and sending it to the south to keep migrants in cages some are revealed to be American citizens with proof of that citizenship, that happen to be Latinos and Hispanics. I guess that was missed in conservative circles as well as the G7 debacle and dufus real estate infomercial.

    Not like repubs or trumpites as they called, are clicking on all cylinders and running that smoothly themselves. Especially with congress at home and the ones brave enough to have townhall meetings are being blasted over gun control issues favored by both parties by huge majorities. You just can't ignore the farm bankruptcies or contracting global economy of our allies and trading partners, or the rising prices here. These things affect those people you are hoping to get support for repubs in the senate as well as the dufus, whom you don't know if he will be re elected or incarcerated. Those things have left the front page, but still winding through the court system.

    Let's face it, the so called good economy is the only claim to fame you guys can hang your hat on because it is the economy stupid, so a campaign of dumping on dems may not work so well if those who have yet to feel that good economy blame repubs and their leader. Interesting but seems a lot can change very quickly. So go ahead and throw confetti while your leader parties with Vlad and Kim, and Xi says screw your soybeans.

    The lying, cheating dufus is a racist fascist bully and the fringes of the right wing coalitions love him for it, and evangelicals hold their noses and forget their religions to support him. Have you ever fact checked this dude? Or just take his word for everything he says? I've made a few allegations so fact check me!
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    #20

    Aug 28, 2019, 07:04 PM
    Talaniman: I won't fact check you, I trust what you say and I have a feeling that you have forgotten more of this stuff than I'll ever know.

    I am not a sychophant for anyone and not a Republican, for the record.

    What I am saying is really nothing to do with compare and contrast exercises of politicians but more along the lines of "Who looks like they will be POTUS in 2020?" It is my opinion, and I do not travel or work in populations of any certain political bent, that Trump has the upper hand in this race. This is based off of several reasons but one of the big one is that he has control of the Bully Pulpit and the opponents do not! If you mix that fact in with the economy and the wealth that has been generated since he came into office, his campaign funding is going to be astronomical. Couple that with Black American unemployment numbers being at historic levels and he is destined to get a lot more Black votes than any Republican ever. He will be a better campaigner and a better debater this time around than last time and he was no pushover last time, obviously.

    The way he has gone after the ChiComs is going to be a plus, regardless of who gets hurt, farmers or no farmers: Deep down inside everyone knows that that ChiComs had to be confronted at some point. Trump will let this thing with China linger around until September of 2020 and then he will strike a deal and the Stock Market will be ballistic there you have the old "October Suprise".

    With the failure of the Russia Investigation, Trump is set to double-down on his dealing with Russia and a lot of people feel that almost 80 years of failed policy, especially failed since Russia gave up Marxism in 1990, should be reevaluated and reformed, again, regardless of what the Continental Europeans think: Russian mineral wealth is there for the U.S. to get a hand on and the possibilities of trade with Russia for the U.S. are great. I think Trump may even be thinking about some kind of alliance with Russia against world terrorism or an alliance to X-out China. Besides, Germany is hellbent on running Europe again from the pseudo-legitimate position of "EU Leader", so let Europe deal with Russia independently and we can get out of this entanglement that has bogged us down for almost years: To Germany: If you are given command, LEAD! they have been plotting this since WWII ended, they really aren't fooling anyone.....but I digress.

    The Democrats are damaging themselves by having Socialist candidates on their ballots: That might fly in some circles but it is a death spiral, in general. They also are not doing themselves any favors by aligning with Antifa or Black Lives Matter: This is a recipe for disaster.

    Trump is The Teflon Don: Everyone thought Bill Clinton was Slick Willy but it is quite obvious that Clinton is way behind Trump in the "getting away with it department".

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