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    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,894, Reputation: 5430
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    #81

    Oct 27, 2018, 01:22 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So he can, all on his own, determine the validity of "divine guidance" someone else received? Wow. That's taking on a big responsibility. I don't think he, or you, or I, or anyone other person is able to, on our own, do such a thing.
    Christians all the time judge the guidance of the holy books and holy men of other religions.

    So your answer is that they should not legally be forced to do that? Just asking.
    Nope. They are business owners and staff who want to sell their wares. The beliefs and lives of their patrons have nothing to do with anything. I worked in LibraryLand for over 25 years. We never questioned patrons as to their beliefs, how they lived, their motivations. We smiled and showed our love as we helped them with their library needs.

    ADDED: I was very pleased to see this article in today's (10/28/18) Chicago Tribune:

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...027-story.html

    We had our homeless regulars and interacted with them. Someday I'll tell you about Jerry, our very special library homeless guy, who, during our twelve-year friendship, taught me many ways to cope with homelessness.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #82

    Oct 27, 2018, 09:52 PM
    Christians all the time judge the guidance of the holy books and holy men of other religions.
    Not on our own. Our own ideas have nothing to do with it. Our ideas and beliefs are guided by the Bible.

    So the Jewish bakery would have to bake/decorate a cake for the KKK? They would be legally required to do so and could be arrested and fined if they refused? Just trying to clarify your position.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #83

    Oct 28, 2018, 07:02 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So the Jewish bakery would have to bake/decorate a cake for the KKK? They would be legally required to do so and could be arrested and fined if they refused?
    Hello j:

    Jews don't look at those things quite the same way Christians do... As distasteful as it was, in the very Jewish city of Skokie, Ill, the Jews SUPPORTED the right of the KKK to march down main street..

    I suggest, that in order to SUPPORT free speech, most Jewish bakers would hold their nose, and bake the stupid cake..

    https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-hist...-speech-skokie

    excon
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    Wondergirl Posts: 37,894, Reputation: 5430
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    #84

    Oct 28, 2018, 09:53 AM
    So the Jewish bakery would have to bake/decorate a cake for the KKK?
    Bake a stupid cake??? Heck, no!!! They would CATER their meal! I predict KKK minds and hearts opening up.
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    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #85

    Oct 28, 2018, 10:30 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    I predict KKK minds and hearts opening up.
    Hello again, Carol:

    AND wallets.. Nazi money spends just like Jewish money.

    excon
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    Wondergirl Posts: 37,894, Reputation: 5430
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    #86

    Oct 28, 2018, 11:23 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, Carol:

    AND wallets.. Nazi money spends just like Jewish money.

    excon
    Hello again, excon:

    I babysat my way through college in Chicago's western suburbs. The families I regularly sat for were Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish (plus atheist now and then). The ones who quickly and easily made me part of their family by involving me in their religious celebrations and observations, by always having delicious food on hand, and by entrusting me with their delightful children (even the doctor's brood of twelve was a walk in the park) were the Jewish families. It was an eye-opening experience for this small-town Lutheran preacher's kid.

    The KKK would only benefit from positive interaction with Jews.

    Carol
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #87

    Oct 28, 2018, 01:18 PM
    Bake a stupid cake??? Heck, no!!! They would CATER their meal! I predict KKK minds and hearts opening up.
    Evade, evade, evade. Have some courage. Take a position. Should the law force them to do business with the KKK?
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    #88

    Oct 28, 2018, 01:33 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Evade, evade, evade. Have some courage. Take a position. Should the law force them to do business with the KKK?
    Why get the law involved? Why force? Like excon said, they'll do it willing.

    The KKK AND the Jews can benefit from positive interactions with each other, as can other groups that have opposing points of view.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #89

    Oct 28, 2018, 02:42 PM
    Why get the law involved? Why force? Like excon said, they'll do it willing.

    The KKK AND the Jews can benefit from positive interactions with each other, as can other groups that have opposing points of view.
    Strange how you fear answering a simple question.

    How did the law get involved? Go back and follow the thread that started with the law forcing Christian bakers to be involved with gay marriages. The question was then asked, "Should the government be able to force a Jewish baker to do business with the KKK?"

    Like excon said, they'll do it willing.
    Neither of you has any way of knowing if they would or wouldn't.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 37,894, Reputation: 5430
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    #90

    Oct 28, 2018, 02:57 PM
    Those bakers need to be educated, not put in handcuffs.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #91

    Oct 28, 2018, 03:10 PM
    "Those bakers need to be educated."

    Chilling, frightening words, that the government, or perhaps Wondergirl, needs to be in the business of telling people what to believe. And remember that there are people (not me!) who believe that the JEWISH bakers are the ones who need to be educated.

    You still haven't answered the question of the Jewish baker, but I'm assuming from your post above that you do not believe that either the Christian baker or the Jewish baker should be compelled by law to violate their religious beliefs.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 37,894, Reputation: 5430
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    #92

    Oct 28, 2018, 03:33 PM
    Chilling, frightening words, that the government, or perhaps Wondergirl, needs to be in the business of telling people what to believe. And remember that there are people (not me!) who believe that the JEWISH bakers are the ones who need to be educated.
    Educated in how to love....
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #93

    Oct 28, 2018, 03:55 PM
    Educated in how to love....
    That's a good comment, so long as we realize that love demands we tell people the truth.
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    #94

    Oct 28, 2018, 04:05 PM
    Like Pontius Pilate asked, "What is truth?"
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #95

    Oct 28, 2018, 04:11 PM
    Like Pontius Pilate asked, "What is truth?"
    If you don't know the answer to that, then how do you know we are supposed to love each other?
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    Wondergirl Posts: 37,894, Reputation: 5430
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    #96

    Oct 28, 2018, 04:36 PM
    And what is YOUR truth? I'm betting at least some of it is different from mine. Then what?

    And how can we arrive at THE Truth?
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #97

    Oct 28, 2018, 04:45 PM
    And how can we arrive at THE Truth?
    [/QUOTE]


    I'd go a step beyond that. How can we even know that there is any such thing as truth? If there is no real truth, then you, nor I, can say with any real conviction that people should love each other. It just becomes opinion.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 37,894, Reputation: 5430
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    #98

    Oct 28, 2018, 05:54 PM
    then you, nor I, can say with any real conviction that people should love each other. It just becomes opinion.
    No shoulds. That's legalistic talk that generates guilt. As Dr. Albert Ellis once advised,"Don't 'should' on yourself."

    P.S. Read I Corinthians 13.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #99

    Oct 28, 2018, 06:27 PM
    You're missing the point completely. Why would I read 1 Cor. 13 unless it is the truth? You seem to think that the truth is nowhere to be found, but if you believe truth is in the Bible, then do you accept it all?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,894, Reputation: 5430
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    #100

    Oct 28, 2018, 07:18 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You're missing the point completely. Why would I read 1 Cor. 13 unless it is the truth? You seem to think that the truth is nowhere to be found, but if you believe truth is in the Bible, then do you accept it all?
    Wow! I guess I'm being too subtle, too philosophical. Do you know what I Cor. 13 is about? As for what I believe about the Bible ... that's a whole 'nother topic.

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