[Athos]

Pope Francis:

In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system.



Trump: "No, I don't benefit, I don't benefit" from his tax proposal. (9/27/2017)

Politifact: "We rate his statement as false. Trump and his family could save more than $1 billion under House tax bill":


Only one of many lies Trump and the GOP leadership are promoting. Will the Trump supporters EVER learn?

[talaniman]

NO! Not even after they get ravaged, fleeced and PUNKED! Lee may have surrendered to Grant at Appomattox, but that never ended the war, just much of the bloodshed.

Our Civil War continues, a long as the tail keeps waging the dog.*

*Thanks Clete for that insight! ;D

[smoothy]

Confimed by facts,, what a load of Bovine excrement. The Democrats "Facts" have been proven to be anything BUT, particularly on this. You however are going to still believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny if it helps you make it through the day.

[Athos]

Confimed by facts,, what a load of Bovine excrement. The Democrats "Facts" have been proven to be anything BUT, particularly on this. You however are going to still believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny if it helps you make it through the day.

This indecipherable reply is a proof of the incontrovertible fact that Trump supporters are marked by low education, low information, and low intelligence. Sad, yes, but not much can be done about it.

[paraclete]

NO! Not even after they get ravaged, fleeced and PUNKED! Lee may have surrendered to Grant at Appomattox, but that never ended the war, just much of the bloodshed.

Our Civil War continues, a long as the tail keeps waging the dog.*

*Thanks Clete for that insight! ;D

Here is another; one Trump is just one of a long line of Yankee Carpetbaggers.

Your tax system could do with some simplification, we are reaching a stage where no tax will be imposed on anyone with an income less than $40,000 but they will have to pay the medicare levy which is only as it should be

[talaniman]

I paid my dues already! The tax code is already simple enough for rich guys to have accounts all over the friggin' world, and still get corporate welfare here. Yeah The Dufus is part of that crowd and it can't get any simpler than that!

This isn't a simplification of the tax code Clete, not by a longshot it's a straight legal robbery of the American people. The Dufus is LYING, and you should know that by now.

[paraclete]

. The Dufus is LYING, and you should know that by now.

How do you know when a politician is lying? Tal, see if his mouth is open.

Taxation is theft, we know that, but there a cost for free trade, once countries could raise revenue by tariffs, You guys had a revolution so you couldn't do that any more.

Look, Tal, if you have to have income tax, the House Bill isn't a bad idea, and some of those Senate ideas, like kicking Obamacare in the teeth, should be adopted. Yes, it does give the rich a tax break but it does give others a tax break too.

[talaniman]

Are you just trying to wind me up because you are that bored. Check your facts we still have tariffs. You don't want to pay taxes? Cool don't call a cop. Oh that's right NO gun either... bummer! Okay who do you call to fix the lights... Oh that's right you pay taxes and can't keep them on. Seems you guys do your fair share of stealing the tax loot yourselves, or don't manage it very well. It's no wonder you have no money to explore beyond your own nose.

All due respect, but as far as American tax policy goes you have no credibility, or LINKS to back you up, so we just chalk that narrative down to you running your loony right wing mouth, or BOREDOM, okay?

[paraclete]

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017...-american.aspx

Tal I know you don't like to do the research and I'm not your research assistant, while I'm responding I'm on the phone so not boredom, multi tasking, but do you really want seven tax brackets, do you want more people to pay tax because you are unwilling for the threshold to rise, etc, etc

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/11/02/what-does-tax-reform-mean-for-the-average-american.aspx

[talaniman]

I have already done MY homework, Clete, but thanks for at least trying. From your article though,

Here, note that the new standard deduction is incorporated into the tax brackets. The $56,516 amount is squarely within the 12% bracket, which is lower than the 15%.
Bear in mind, though, that tax brackets only tell you your marginal tax rate, not your effective tax rate. The typical American family described above would have a tentative tax of $3,727 under the current tax system, but under the new system, that same family would have a figure of $3,902.

That has been the crux of the argument for decades and fact being that the party line that our corporate rates are the highest in the world is a lie, as no corporation pays the marginal tax rate here. With loopholes the actual taxes are almost nil, so what would that do for already immensely profitable companies? Bingo! Make them more profitable, and we already see that those profits have nothing to do with WAGES, which spur DEMAND and lead to economic growth and jobs. You are an accountant and should know that already, but unfortunately like most right wingers you believe that Supply side economics is the way to go. You have written how in your country you have those that make and take profit while they produce NOTHING. We have that too, it's called Wall Street, you know those guy's that crashed the global economy? Well this is the tax break for them.

Traditionally and factually Wall Street has taken profit and rolled it back into itself, even as it continues to make more schemes to separate people from their hard earned money.

Nice try though! Even if you took your link right from Trumps lying lips, which was the source from which the article was written. Funny how they left a lot of stuff out like the deficit going up, and those middle class tax cuts disappearing after a few years, while corporate, and upper class taxes remain permanently, and the cuts to Medicaid and Medicare.

Guess we learned nothing from the Bush tax cuts.

[paraclete]

The sad part is, Tal, there is no such thing as the average family, it is a politicians myth, there are people on a spread of incomes, probably many below the average and many with more than the average, the average is distorted by the millionaires and the billionaires. You don't see them publishing the statistics on how many are in each bracket and what is the spread of their incomes, because then you can calculate just what the impact is.

No, articles are written from a bias and I took the bias in this one to show that it is a close run thing, maybe no one actually benefits, it could be slight of hand but I can tell you that you are better off with fewer brackets to ward off bracket creep.

If corporate's pay little tax what does it matter what the rate is? Lower taxes disincentiveise cheating. But the big tax reduction is dropping the compulsory insurance levy, etc

[talaniman]

The sad part is, Tal, there is no such thing as the average family, it is a politicians myth, there are people on a spread of incomes, probably many below the average and many with more than the average, the average is distorted by the millionaires and the billionaires. You don't see them publishing the statistics on how many are in each bracket and what is the spread of their incomes, because then you can calculate just what the impact is.

A very excellent observation.

No, articles are written from a bias and I took the bias in this one to show that it is a close run thing, maybe no one actually benefits, it could be slight of hand but I can tell you that you are better off with fewer brackets to ward off bracket creep.

Explain the rationale of that statement as it makes NO sense.

If corporate's pay little tax what does it matter what the rate is? Lower taxes disincentiveise cheating. But the big tax reduction is dropping the compulsory insurance levy, etc

If you leave the loopholes it matters a lot, because LESS revenues mean all those states with ordinary people get less money to run their communities. Less services, less jobs, less tax baes and that's the bottom line. Does your country pay cops, firemen, teachers and maintain the roads, and schools off LOCAL Taxes? We have 50 states, half of which depend on revenues from the government, and all the not so rich older folks.

Lower taxes have never guaranteed rich guy's won't find new schemes to make MO' money! That's a myth rich guys tell you. I refer you to the global melt down after the Bush tax cuts. Dropping mandatory insurance just leads to higher health costs for everybody.

A high price to pay for an aging population, that saves a small group a few bucks. Actually 30 percent of the population is between 25-44, half of which are women and children, kick in to support women children and older people, and that's a problem for you?

Now if we changed to a cradle to grave heath care system similar to your own, and most of the free developed world, you may be on to something. Here you pay the middle man if you can afford it. You sure can't pay for wellness yourself.

[Athos]

Bottom Line:

1- The Trump/GOP tax plan will INCREASE the deficit by over one TRILLION dollars. That's TRILLION with a "T".

2- The wealthy will get HUGE tax cuts. Individuals, corporations, and donor payback. These last pay the GOP for passing laws in their interest.

3- The lower and middle classes will ultimately see a tax INCREASE.

For details, look at the internet. All the information is shown in great clarity at dozens of websites. They're not hard to find. Anyone who believes the lies from the mouths of Trump, Ryan and that ilk deserves whatever they get.

[paraclete]

A very excellent observation.

Yes I nail it now and again

Explain the rationale of that statement as it makes NO sense.

Bracket creep occurs when inflation or a buoyant economy increases earnings in a tax system which doesn't change, the more steps you have, the easier it is to be paying a higher rate of tax without your purchasing power actually increasing[/quote]

If you leave the loopholes it matters a lot, because LESS revenues mean all those states with ordinary people get less money to run their communities. Less services, less jobs, less tax baes and that's the bottom line. Does your country pay cops, firemen, teachers and maintain the roads, and schools off LOCAL Taxes? We have 50 states, half of which depend on revenues from the government, and all the not so rich older folks.

We have an entirely different system to yours, our states ceded rights to income tax long ago, and they receive the GST (a growth tax) collected by the federal government distributed among them, they also benefit from stamp duties imposed on property sales and mining royalties. There are also grants for various purposes.

Lower taxes have never guaranteed rich guy's won't find new schemes to make MO' money! That's a myth rich guys tell you. I refer you to the global melt down after the Bush tax cuts.

I find that statement irrational, tax is not intended to be a disincentive, but high taxes definitely are, what is the point of increasing tax until it is punitive. I remember when there was actually a tax bracket above 90%. We had few millionaires in those days

Dropping mandatory insurance just leads to higher health costs for everybody.

are you saying health costs have been lower because of mandatory health insurance?

A high price to pay for an aging population, that saves a small group a few bucks. Actually 30 percent of the population is between 25-44, half of which are women and children, kick in to support women children and older people, and that's a problem for you?

Now if we changed to a cradle to grave heath care system similar to your own, and most of the free developed world, you may be on to something. Here you pay the middle man if you can afford it. You sure can't pay for wellness yourself.

Well Tal it isn't a problem for me, but our health system has two benefits, no one has to go without essential health care by reason of finances and health costs are contained because the government regulates fees within the system.

[talaniman]

Bracket creep occurs when inflation or a buoyant economy increases earnings in a tax system which doesn't change, the more steps you have, the easier it is to be paying a higher rate of tax without your purchasing power actually increasing

Interesting, I may have more on that later, because the likelihood of the economy taking off that fast, or inflation getting that far out of control is nil if the fed does it's job. Federal Reserve that is.

We have an entirely different system to yours, our states ceded rights to income tax long ago, and they receive the GST (a growth tax) collected by the federal government distributed among them, they also benefit from stamp duties imposed on property sales and mining royalties. There are also grants for various purposes.

We have all that too, but a big deficit sort of puts a crimp in the plan.

I find that statement irrational, tax is not intended to be a disincentive, but high taxes definitely are, what is the point of increasing tax until it is punitive. I remember when there was actually a tax bracket above 90%. We had few millionaires in those days
Intentions have little bearing when a guy want's Mo'Money, and figures out ways to get it. Our history is full of those types, so I stand by my statement.

Are you saying health costs have been lower because of mandatory health insurance?

No doubt they continue to climb, always have, always will until we cut out the middle man.

Well Tal it isn't a problem for me, but our health system has two benefits, no one has to go without essential health care by reason of finances and health costs are contained because the government regulates fees within the system.

Now that's what I'm talking about! I get Medicare in a few years if The Dufus and his right wing cronies don't screw that up. They've been trying for decades so they can give their rich donors even MO"Money.

[paraclete]

Tal, I think all this can be summed up by a different view of the world, a different ethos. Your economy is predicated by taking for yourself and sharing little, we could say this is the scrooge point of view. Ours is predicated on the view that we all have a right to benefit from the wealth of the nation. From each according to his means to each according to their need is not foreign to our thinking. Therefore we can have a universal health care system supported by the right and the left, and covers everyone, we can have a taxation system modified by the right that actually reduces taxes for everyone, we have uniform laws because states rights do not dominate. This is not to say that the left don't want more of the cake, and the right will deny them but we see that poverty is actually a serious issue and we don't think food stamps is a way to solve it. We once had a Prime Minister who had a goal that no child should live in poverty. Could you imagine Trump embracing such a philosophy, I didn't see Obama making such a statement.

[talaniman]

You guys are doing okay over there Clete, but don't throw crap, and claim you have solved all your problems. The Great Melting Pot is still being stirred, and there is still resistance to sharing with SOME people. The loony right wingers here still cannot accept the concept of sharing, and many are mad as hell they have nothing to share, and blame it on others.

That's how they will make America great again, by taking it black from the OTHER people*. That was Trumps promise.

*No that's not a typo!

[paraclete]

You guys are doing okay over there Clete, but don't throw crap, and claim you have solved all your problems. The Great Melting Pot is still being stirred, and there is still resistance to sharing with SOME people. The loony right wingers here still cannot accept the concept of sharing, and many are mad as hell they have nothing to share, and blame it on others.

That's how they will make America great again, by taking it black from the OTHER people*. That was Trumps promise.

*No that's not a typo!

Hey Tal, yes we have some problems but find most are solved with goodwill. Someone over there voted for Trump, how the guy with less votes wins is beyond me, but then some of our outcomes are strange too.

Problems we have solved;
Illegal migration through people trafficers, visa overstayers, another problem
Heath care
Taxation
Trade agreements
Education
Welfare
Making the country great again, (great today, perfect tomorrow)
Border protection, the no wall solution

Problems we have not solved;
Indigenous affairs
Drug trafficking
Energy prices
NBN
Loss of manufacturing
House prices and availability
Regional development
The great KIWI exodus
Camels, cane toads and other ferels
railway timetables

that's very black of you, Tal

[talaniman]

we have some problems but find most are solved with goodwill.

Copy that.

[paraclete]

Well Tal I can see why you think the GOP is pulling a swifty, with rich people getting the most benefit, but then those who pay the most will benefit more. You can't cut tax without impacting debt and deficit, and I know it is hard to see why you would reduce tax with a runaway debt excepting that why should the general population pay for bigger military spending and making insurance companies profitable