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    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #21

    May 2, 2017, 07:11 PM
    Many extraneous factors are ignored Tom because they represent an inconvenient truth. That truth is we don't really know what is driving the changes we observe and this is because someone has shouted look over there. Maybe a rise in ocean temperature is causing sea level rise, maybe the oceans are absorbing the temperature increase, but I have observed both hotter and colder seasons, and I have lived long enough to see a fifty year cycle come around again. Personally I don't want to see those low temperatures again so a little warming is a good thing, a little more rain is a good thing..

    I have a question for all those who pursue renewable energy, what is going to happen when all those solar panels and wind generators are going to have to be replaced at the end of their twenty year life? Are our landfills going to be full of solar panels? Will the landscape be full of useless windmills?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,328, Reputation: 10855
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    #22

    May 2, 2017, 07:25 PM
    There is a maintenance cost to everything humans do, as well as upgrading when new technology is developed. What do you do when your faucets leak, or your tires wear out?

    You change them out with new stuff!
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #23

    May 2, 2017, 07:35 PM
    Even with renewables, we are taking from the earth . Rare earth minerals still have to be mined .

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...m-ion-battery/

    They exploit child labor in the Congo to extract the cobalt needed for lithium.Another one of those inconvenient truths .Neodymium and dysprosium are also used in solar panels and wind turbines .Almost all of it is mined in China .There is only one mine in the US . This is what it looks like .





    The demand for these are already close to exceeding world supply .
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #24

    May 2, 2017, 07:48 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    There is a maintenance cost to everything humans do, as well as upgrading when new technology is developed. What do you do when your faucets leak, or your tires wear out?

    You change them out with new stuff!
    It is not the same Tal, Tyres are made from rubber a truly renewable resource, when the faucets leak I replace a small part, a washer, I don't throw the faucet away, you may want to live in the throw away society but I try to avoid it, I don't need a new car every year or a new phone, electrical generators in power stations can last a long, long time, I know of hydro stations over a century old, so the world will have to think about consumption and recycling on a greater scale
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,328, Reputation: 10855
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    #25

    May 2, 2017, 08:02 PM
    The attachment didn't go through, but I take your point, Tom. There are always trade offs for resources, and the associated costs that are not limited to just money I guess.

    Makes for some complicated international trade deals doesn't it? But don't you think those Chinese are tired of wearing those silly useless masks? Or shutting down factories when they have "guests". Ever see what Los Angeles use to look like before emission standards were enacted?
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 949, Reputation: 55
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    #26

    May 2, 2017, 10:01 PM
    One bright and early morning in Pittsburgh circa 1940






    Pittsburgh - after coal REGULATION!!!!!

    Catsmine's Avatar
    Catsmine Posts: 3,827, Reputation: 739
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    #27

    May 3, 2017, 12:53 AM
    Athos,
    Those pictures illustrate perfectly the concept of "mission creep." As a former resident of Chattanooga, TN, the second smoggiest city in the world in 1970, I understand completely how EPA funding and local enforcement cleaned up the air and made the river habitable. Now, however, with their original goals accomplished, the bureaucracy has to justify their paycheck so they declare cattle a pollutant and want to regulate puddles after a rainstorm.

    Is there still work to be done? Absolutely. Finding solutions for Flint MI and Camp Lejeune and a thousand other sites are critical needs but the mindset of Walter Peck from 'Ghostbusters' isn't going to help anyone or anything
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #28

    May 3, 2017, 01:35 AM
    We can all have the clean air we want, it involves keeping the corporates honest and having community responsibility, it doesn't involve declaring CO to a pollutant
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,328, Reputation: 10855
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    #29

    May 3, 2017, 08:27 AM
    Yes it does if you want to limit how much CO you want pumped into your environment. Certain levels are poisonous to humans and most other oxygen breathers on this planet. You are aware that children and babies are more susceptible and what may not kill you will certainly make you sick as a dog. That's why what man produces as a bi product of his other activities like driving has to be monitored and regulated for the public safety... like any harmful substance.

    Now you may trust a corporation to spend the resources to make them honest, but I for one would rather have verifiable documentation that corporations are in safety compliance.

    Exposure over time to even small amounts that are over what's found in nature, can be hazardous to your health Clete, and it's just common sense that it is a pollutant in the hands of corporations that produce them.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #30

    May 3, 2017, 02:07 PM
    Works for me . The company I work for can afford to implement Part 117 of the FSMA . But many of our smaller competitors are going to be driven out of business over these new Obama era regulations. Good for us . WE will absorb their business and grow to be a larger more powerful corporation in our field ...thanks to those regulations that everyone thinks are needed even though there is no evidence that it will make our products any safer . You guys keep on talking about reigning in corporations ,and perhaps this is the unintended consequences (although I doubt it and believe it is all part of the greater socialist plan). But the more regulations you enact ,the fewer players in the game .These are the big -oil ,big coal ;big-pharma ,big -agri ,big -banking companies you constantly complain about .You helped create them .
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 949, Reputation: 55
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    #31

    May 3, 2017, 02:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Yes it does if you want to limit how much CO you want pumped into your environment. Certain levels are poisonous to humans and most other oxygen breathers on this planet. You are aware that children and babies are more susceptible and what may not kill you will certainly make you sick as a dog. That's why what man produces as a bi product of his other activities like driving has to be monitored and regulated for the public safety... like any harmful substance.

    Now you may trust a corporation to spend the resources to make them honest, but I for one would rather have verifiable documentation that corporations are in safety compliance.

    Exposure over time to even small amounts that are over what's found in nature, can be hazardous to your health Clete, and it's just common sense that it is a pollutant in the hands of corporations that produce them.

    Also - corporations, by law, are responsible ONLY to their shareholders and to regulatory LAW, if any. Without regulatory law, corporations will do anything they can legally get away with. Look at the preposterous reactions of the tobacco industry as the cancer-causing effects of cigarettes became proven, Big Pharma that will price a drug at whatever the market will bear oblivious to the fact of death and dying among the less fortunate unable to afford the price, - there are dozens and dozens of such examples that show corporations to be completely uninterested in good citizenship.

    When "studies" are cited denying climate change, look who paid for the study.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catsmine View Post
    Athos,
    Those pictures illustrate perfectly the concept of "mission creep." As a former resident of Chattanooga, TN, the second smoggiest city in the world in 1970, I understand completely how EPA funding and local enforcement cleaned up the air and made the river habitable. Now, however, with their original goals accomplished, the bureaucracy has to justify their paycheck so they declare cattle a pollutant and want to regulate puddles after a rainstorm.

    Is there still work to be done? Absolutely. Finding solutions for Flint MI and Camp Lejeune and a thousand other sites are critical needs but the mindset of Walter Peck from 'Ghostbusters' isn't going to help anyone or anything
    I agree in general with what you're saying, but after mission goals have been accomplished, there remains a need for maintenance and for constant watch-dogging. Silly regulations should be discarded.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #32

    May 3, 2017, 02:33 PM
    Energy companies like Exxon Mobile have funded studies on both sides of the debate .And energy companies take a lead in R & D of renewables .
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-fossil-fuels
    Of course they do .They are in the energy business ;not just the oil business.

    The imbalance in funding comes from the fact that most of climate funding comes from government and left wing organizations and they are the ones that start with preconceived conclusions .It is very difficult for some of the top climate scientists to get funding for their research unless they embrace global warming fearmongering .
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe.../#26d6c5e07ecf
    Catsmine's Avatar
    Catsmine Posts: 3,827, Reputation: 739
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    #33

    May 3, 2017, 05:13 PM
    But is this big Government cure worse than the disease?

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...pill/31384515/
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #34

    May 3, 2017, 05:31 PM
    I rode a coal fired stream train from Durango to Silverton that followed the Animas River through the San Juan National Forest . It was a very scenic ride . If you watch the video you can see what the river was like before the EPA turned it yellow .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdyMOt68MxY
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #35

    May 3, 2017, 06:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I rode a coal fired stream train from Durango to Silverton that followed the Animas River through the San Juan National Forest . It was a very scenic ride . If you watch the video you can see what the river was like before the EPA turned it yellow .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdyMOt68MxY
    Very scenic indeed Tom thanks for that, reminds me a little of the Zig Zag about 50 miles from where I live if you like steam trains

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50LDT3ezG_0

    It was once known as the 8th wonder of the world
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #36

    May 4, 2017, 11:10 AM
    love narrow gauge rail trains .
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #37

    May 4, 2017, 07:00 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    love narrow gauge rail trains .
    Not quite sure why you might refer to as narrow gauge, our NSW and trans-continental trains run on what we refer to as standard gauge, Victoria uses a broad gauge while Queensland and Western Australia use narrow gauge. This is where the nonsense of various states going their own way disrupts commerce. Narrow gauge is often used for industrial lines not connected to main lines
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 343
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    #38

    May 5, 2017, 08:48 AM
    That is what the Durango-Silverton line was . The train rides very close to the edge of a ravine through most of the trip.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #39

    May 5, 2017, 03:07 PM
    Yes I observed it was a narrow gauge line
    DoulaLC's Avatar
    DoulaLC Posts: 10,488, Reputation: 1952
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    #40

    May 6, 2017, 06:16 AM
    Ahhh, drove that route on the million dollar highway in a semi with 48' stepdeck trailer. Never again!

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