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    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #1

    Jan 20, 2017, 07:58 AM
    Were our founders LIBS, and is the Constitution is a LIBERAL document??
    Hello.

    Well, OF COURSE, it is.. Read 'em and weep.
    -----

    Would a right wing congress pass a law giving accused criminals a lawyer PAID for by the government???

    Would a right wing congress pass a law that kept religion OUT of government??

    Would a right wing congress pass a law that told cops they COULDN'T search people WITHOUT a warrant???

    Would a right wing congress pass a law that ALLOWED people to take to the streets to COMPLAIN about the government??

    Would a right wing congress pass a law that said PORN is legal??

    Our founders did ALL of those things, and more - much more. That's liberal stuff, right??

    excon
    joypulv's Avatar
    joypulv Posts: 21,593, Reputation: 2941
    current pert
     
    #2

    Jan 20, 2017, 08:10 AM
    I won't take the bait. The founders fought as much as any bunch of people can fight. It was basically statists vs feds. I won't call statists conservative nor call federalists liberals.

    I'd rather call your list egalitarian.

    These days I'm sick of both liberal and conservative because the partisanship runs so deep.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 905, Reputation: 55
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    #3

    Jan 20, 2017, 11:55 AM
    That's an interesting list, but you can't escape the fact that many of those so-called liberals owned human beings - slaves. And, in the case of arguably the most liberal of them all, Thomas Jefferson, he carried on a relationship with a slave that can only be called rape in terms of the power difference between them.
    jumbotron93's Avatar
    jumbotron93 Posts: 2, Reputation: 1
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    #4

    Jan 20, 2017, 12:23 PM
    You're nitpicking. The Constitution also provides for the right to bear arms (something that liberals would not go for), states' rights (which liberals tend to want to nationalize), and unelected, lifetime Supreme Court justices (again, something that liberals do not go for).

    You can't equate the politics of the founders to those of today.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #5

    Jan 20, 2017, 01:34 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    but you can't escape the fact that many of those so-called liberals owned human beings - slaves.
    Hello again, Athos:

    You're right.. They WEREN'T liberals, but they wrote the Constitution as if they were.

    excon
    cdad's Avatar
    cdad Posts: 12,701, Reputation: 1438
    Internet Research Expert
     
    #6

    Jan 20, 2017, 03:00 PM
    If the libs wrote it then they would have never written in the part about freedom of speech. The only way it applies for them is that freedom of speech only applies to them.

    When you consider the conditions this country went through to get to the point of independence then it makes sense the way it was written. If it were written today it would have looked very different.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #7

    Jan 20, 2017, 03:38 PM
    1. I won't take the bait. The founders fought as much as any bunch of people can fight. It was basically statists vs feds. I won't call statists conservative nor call federalists liberals.

      I'd rather call your list egalitarian.
    excellent !!!

    1. unelected, lifetime Supreme Court justices
    I'm a constitutionalist who thinks the framers blew that big time ;and it is high time it is amended .
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #8

    Jan 20, 2017, 03:43 PM
    Liberalism is a funny word . It doesn't mean the same thing as it did in the days of the framers (as a side note ;the "founders" wrote the Declaration of Independence ;the "framers "created the Constitution . They are not one in the same . Jefferson was not a framer thank God. He was out of the country during the Constitutional Convention ) . The liberalism today is statist Fabianism . Conservatives of today have more in common with the classical liberals of the founding days .
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 905, Reputation: 55
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    #9

    Jan 20, 2017, 04:34 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    . . . the "founders" wrote the Declaration of Independence ;the "framers "created the Constitution . They are not one in the same .
    A distinction without a difference.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 342
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    #10

    Jan 20, 2017, 05:52 PM
    not true . There was a very clear divide amongst the founders between Federalists and anti-Federalists . The Founders stood against the tyranny of the crown ,taking great risks in doing so.When the revolution was over ;they gave us the failed Articles of Confederation.There were several founders who did not participate in the Constitutional Convention ;including Jefferson;and others who were outspoken opponents of Federalism. Patrick Henry refused to participate .
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 905, Reputation: 55
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    #11

    Jan 20, 2017, 09:20 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    not true . There was a very clear divide amongst the founders between Federalists and anti-Federalists . The Founders stood against the tyranny of the crown ,taking great risks in doing so.When the revolution was over ;they gave us the failed Articles of Confederation.There were several founders who did not participate in the Constitutional Convention ;including Jefferson;and others who were outspoken opponents of Federalism. Patrick Henry refused to participate .
    You're getting bogged down in the local politics of the late 1700s.

    Excon's post was pretty clear. How does today's right wing feel about the principles he enunciated? With the Bill of Rights - a genuinely brilliant add-on to a political document - the Constitution was forward-looking and progressive. It was also undeniably conservative. A mix of both political philosophies.

    My feeling is that today's right wing would be unable or unwilling to approve of the ideas in the post.

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