[paraclete]

The reaction of the millenials to Brexit brings into question who actually owns the country. Is it the people who have worked for years and contributed their taxes, took the hard knocks, innovated and stood in the breach, or is it those who have contributed little, have had their hand out since birth and think they are entitled?

[Wondergirl]

Who birthed and raised these Millennials?

[paraclete]

Exactly my thoughts, they should stand in solidarity with their parents, their families and not expect the older generation to bow down to them. I have heard much of how they will have to bear the consequences. How can you bear the consequence of a future you have never had? You don't know the future, the EU is a fragile entity, as the Greek monetary crisis demonstated and as the GFC demonstrated, and the germans don't care, they invite migrants in to replace you in the work force.

[joypulv]

Don't let anyone over 65 vote. Why should they determine the future?
Just nudging at your suggestion that millennials shouldn't be allowed to. It works both ways.
When in all of history have young adults 'stood in solidarity with their parents??' It is part of our genetic code to be different. And how exactly do you propose to force this solidarity?

Millennials aren't as bad as the the media likes to paint them. Every single one I'm related to (11) and all their friends and their friends are good productive members of society. Better than I ever was, turning 21 in 67, dropping out. There are some differences. As one employer summed it up, they work hard on a project, and then want a raise and a promotion. As a survey of why cereal sales are down revealed, they don't want to wash any dishes. They ARE starting to buy houses instead of living with their parents.

To my mind brexit is between those who need a simple explanation for changes in their jobs, scale of income, immigration, and what globalization has done to them, vs those who realize that it's going to be tough going as more and more of the world wants a slice of the pie and is tired of being cheap labor. Talking about trade policies is too complicated for too many people.

I don't see immigrants 'stealing' jobs. How do you steal a job? In the US, most Americans won't do certain jobs at all, and a million jobs go begging. Some are lowly and some are high tech. In one meat processing plant out in a rural area of the midwest, the entire workforce of Somali Muslims quit over a dispute, and the company can't find ANYONE willing to take the jobs. Why? They have to work in freezing warehouses full of non-stop noise of machinery. Other 'stolen' jobs are simply employers offering the lowest possible wages while expecting the impossible. How do you clean hotels in the most expensive cities in the world, without commuting from far away and living with a big extended family?

[talaniman]

One can only wonder how some can take such a dim view of others and lose the clarity of facts through objectivity.

Who owns the country?

Obviously the ones that can take and hold it from whomever they encountered that owned it before them. Like your own ancestors and elders who took it from someone and gave it to YOU!

Small wonder your fear, and the fear of others like you, and scorn are directed at those you think will do to you what you have done to others.

So be afraid, be very afraid of reaping what you sow!

[paraclete]

Yes the brits will reap what they sow just as the EU before them has reaped what it sowed. You too will reap what you sow, Tal, you want to sow to exploitation then you will reap a country that is unrecognisable. Those somalis joy speaks of were being exploited and were smart enough to say enough of this. If your americans were out of work they should take the jobs, someone must have done it before the somali came. Perhaps the millenials could do it.

My ancestors didn't take anything from anyone, they carved it out of a wilderness, and no one gave me anything, I started with nothing. You cannot liken today's twenty year old to those fifty years ago, the whole playing field was different. The millenials will never know the possibility of being drafted into the military and how that changes your options, they will never know the crap of a foreign battlefield unless they choose to go, but their parents made the sacrifice and should be listened to. The Brits decided that their freedoms were being impinged and did something about it. Brexit was their tea party and you would deny them what you celebrate yourselves

[Wondergirl]

The Brits decided that their freedoms were being impinged and did something about it. Brexit was their tea party and you would deny them what you celebrate yourselves

Those Brits who pushed Brexit were older white guys, not Millennials. Was their freedom being impinged on? Now they're not so sure and are walking it back.

[paraclete]

Those Brits who pushed Brexit were older white guys, not Millennials. Was their freedom being impinged on? Now they're not so sure and are walking it back.

You have to live with your decisions. This is why political party's say don't make protest votes. Britain is a special case, they have real immigrant problems, and their whole economic climate is wrapped up in decisions made elsewhere. The fact is that those "white" guys are the majority and they are entitled to make decisions for their country and to demand their politicians listen. The politicians didn't want to hear this message because it might mean most of them will loose their seats. You have a bad case of minorities not respecting the umpires decision. Scotland is maybe 10%, Nth Ireland maybe 5%, they didn't like the decision but they don't carry enough weight to matter, Immigrants are maybe 10%, same result, take their votes out and you see the real owners of the country voted overwhelmingly and the result should be respected if Britain is to remain a democracy. I think the message should be if you don't like it leave, get off the bus

[joypulv]

SNORT. Who was being exploited? Methinks you pulled that out of thin air. Dirty jobs are what they are. Don't know of a way to make meat processing warm and quiet.

My contention remains that those who voted for brexit are those looking for simple one liners to solve everything, and nationalistic, isolated solutions. Too late for that by decades, at least. Same people in the US. It's uncanny.

I'm not saying that the EU is perfect. They have rules I didn't know about and probably more. So fix the rules.

[talaniman]

Immigrants have nothing to do with governments visiting austerity measures on the poorer parts of the population, in Britain, Europe, or anywhere else in the world. It's a poor excuse to distract us from the real problem of wealth extraction that has resulted in levels of income inequality.

The global version of trickle down economics that has NEVER worked for the ordinary citizen. I mean immigrants don't make policy or create jobs just supplies the cheap labor that business LOVES and promotes. When are we going to blame our elected officials for the monetary policies that makes rich guys richer and poor people poorer and fighting for the crumbs of what's left over?

Go justify your bigotry elsewhere Clete, since you seem to distinguish your own immigration status of years past from the current status of present day immigrants given you both were running from one place to another and hoping for better than what you left.

That's the true definition of hypocrisy. Everything you write about is the true definition of the worst kind of thinking possible.

Tell me what makes a human so full of hate? I can't believe your Christian upbringing allows you to judge others so unfairly harsh. I thought it was do unto others... not, do what was done to you! At least say why YOUR ancestors left home country for Australia?

Just so you know, I have already reaped what I have sown and am grateful for the sweet fruits of my labor, and hope others know that feeling in their lives. I know it gets better.

[smoothy]

EU has some really stupid rules that are causing the rift.

For example, Europeans are far from homogeneous...

And many of the Stereotypes while politically incorrect, are spot on...
The French are arrogant, The Germans pushy, but organized, ( and regimented so very much team players, polar opposites of the Italians), The Belgians have Napoleon complexes... The Italians... hate anyone telling them what to do... particularly Italians from other parts of the Country (Don't know enough Dutch, Spaniards or Portuguese to comment on them, though the couple Portuguese I do know are really laid back farmers and manual laborers).



Italy has had a far bigger share of the burden of illegals for decades, and not just the current crop... they always had the Gypsy Horde to deal with and The Albanians since communism fell there, Recently the Romanians as well... and the only ones that even remotely behaved themselves were the ones from Senegal who have been jumping ship there for over 30 years...

Now the EU is commanding Italy to take X number of likely Terrorist Sympathizing Muslims who Italy will have to pay for themselves WITHOUT Germany or Belgium contributing one Euro... Italy doesn't have jobs for actual Italians, unemployment is over 20% for those under 35 ( some parts of the country its significantly higher than that), its not uncommon for kids to not be able to move out from home until their late 30's. And its financially not in much better shape than Greece is.

Lot of festering disgust over there you just will not see on the left leaning media... you barely see the tip of the iceberg...

I see a lot of problems blowing up over there in the next few years if things don't radically change. People are tired of the high crime rates that happened and are committed mostly by illegals... its not safe for a single woman to walk alone over there, even with others around. In the last couple years my mother-in-law, has had her purse stolen 4 times, daytime with lots of witnesses... she's 84 and has never had it happen ever before... one other sister-in-law, 4 times as well, and this was in the good parts of town... not the bad ones.

Bicycle and motorcycle theft is off the charts, you can't even chain them up overnight and expect them to be there in the AM.

Years ago you could hit a club in the bad part of town, get drunk and walk clear across town at 3am, with empty dark streets and nothing would ever happen... (did it many times), now at noon, with people around in a good part of town, you have to be vigilant and alert all the time.

Lot of this you only know if you have a lot of close friends there, and have spent years there yourself to see the decline, and when it happened.

Just look at the NO-GO zones in the UK and France, where the Police won't even go into... guess who overwhelmingly occupy those areas... you guessed it, not people who trace their ancestry to that part of the world past at most their parents even if they might have been born there.

Yeah SOME of them might not be bad... but there are so many others that really ARE.

[cdad]

I thought the queen owned it as it seems that is the current system in place. The rest is just politics to keep things running.

[paraclete]

I thought the queen owned it as it seems that is the current system in place. The rest is just politics to keep things running.

The Queen is just a figurehead with less power than the Presidentbut you can bet the Queen is in favour of Brexit. She has the rare privilege of being there when they went it and being there when they come out

[paraclete]

Tell me what makes a human so full of hate? I can't believe your Christian upbringing allows you to judge others so unfairly harsh. I thought it was do unto others... not, do what was done to you! At least say why YOUR ancestors left home country for Australia?

.

You claim I am bigoted Tal but in fact I don't like bullies, whether that is the US or the EU or the UN. Why did my people freely come to this country in 1822, because of the bullying of the English, they sought a new life away from that, and the very difficult economic circumstances of the time. You want to talk to me about Christian faith, my faith tells me to make a right judgement, to see things as they are. It doesn't tell me to take up arms to right the wrongs in someoneelse's yard, but sometimes evil must be opposed, whether that is evil among my own people or evil elsewhere. The immigration we have going on in the world right now is not benign but the outcome of an evil ideology trying to impose itself upon others, the type of bully that says bow down or die.

In answer to that I will echo the words of John Howard. We will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances under which they come.

[Wondergirl]

Why did my people freely come to this country in 1822, because of the bullying of the English ... In answer to that I will echo the words of John Howard. We will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances under which they come.

And now who has become the bully?

[paraclete]

And now who has become the bully?

Not right, every country has the right to determine its destiny, free from the interferrence of others. If Britain wants to go it alone, to have a nationalistic view because they feel bullied by the larger Europe, I say to them go for it, two hundred years ago the americans did the same thing. If my country says to others who it can see cannot contribute don't come here, or, come by a different route and respect our laws, why should it be condemned?


This is a different thing to bombing the crap out of people who cannot defend themselves. Freedom is not the right to trample over other peoples rights without respect for anything but your own selfish desires. I cannot say to someone give me what you have because you have it and I don't, and I am not the bully by saying no should the demand be made of me. The world is full of people with backwards views, whose thinking is wrong. People who won't fight for their own country try to go somewhereelse and take their culture with them. If this is found unexceptable they play the victim and claim they are oppressed. I might be a citizen of Earth by birth, but that citizenship doesn't entitle me to live wherever I choose, to do whatever I want

[Wondergirl]

My German ancestors didn't want to fight the wars in Europe during the 1850s, so came to America, didn't know English, brought their customs and traditions and religion and food preferences with them, slowly learned English but still spoke German amongst themselves. How is that different from immigrants today?

[paraclete]

My German ancestors didn't want to fight the wars in Europe during the 1850s, so came to America, didn't know English, brought their customs and traditions and religion and food preferences with them, slowly learned English but still spoke German amongst themselves. How is that different from immigrants today?

Speaking a language at home is different to creating an enclave in another country that becomes a no go zone for the earlier residents, this is unacceptable. Many of today's "immigrants" don't assimilate and learn the customs and language of their new home. I do find it unacceptable to be confronted in the street by a woman who is to all intents and purposes masked, In some cases I cannot tell even if it is a woman, this is unacceptable in these uncertain times where terrorists are known to mask themselves in this manner. Those who insisted on freedom of religion did not envisage people from the diverse places as today, they did not want a state religion imposed and yet this is what these immigrants want, they have no concept of freedom of religion, they have no concept of democracy

[talaniman]

Why do you insist on making the actions of a few cloud you into judging so harshly the many? Such a mindset feeds into victimizing the good who are already victimized by the bad seeds. Or haven't you noticed that Muslims have already paid a terrible price in lives to the terrorists in the middle east? Far more than the Christians who have claimed they have.

That's the kind of thinking that oppresses and helps recruit even more terrorists, and is not only bullying, but quite oppressive to entire populations, and while you paint your ancestors as voluntary good immigrants and current immigrants as bad, you both shared the same reasons for running from your homelands (As ALL immigrants have throughout HISTORY), oppression and the lack of opportunity.

Now that you have made it good after a few generations you expect modern immigrants to bow to your hatred? Can't you see that makes you an dumb sheep following a bad shepherd? Of course you cannot see that such behavior cannot logically have a good outcome for anyone but the bad shepherd, and you will never feel better or have peace amid the chaos, as long as you embrace, and continue to feed your own fear, hate, and prejudice, that just embeds your resentments and poisons your mind,body, and soul.

You dare claim to know and understand freedom? From what you are preaching you sound more like a prisoner. You should get some help for that!

[paraclete]

Far more than the Christians who have claimed they have.

Far more than the Christians who have claimed they have. did you just hear yourself, radical Muslims have carried out a genocide of Christians in Iraq and Syria, people who have lived peacefully in these places for centuries. These people if they survive have no place to go back to and you say muslims have suffered less, maybe some of these muslims got what they deserved for not lifting a hand to stop it. The US is trying to depose Assad and yet he did not persecute Christians. I think the US government is as mixed up as you are, you are one of these who would welcome muslim immigration, well Tal, you are welcome to them, and when these black shouded people invade your streets and create their little ghetto in the surburb next door and the violence breaks out, remember you welcomed them

Be careful what you wish for, it just might happen

My ancestors did not migrate because they had committed acts of violence in their own country, they walked away from Tyrrany and they did not displace anyone. You think that because I have that ancestory I should welcome everyone but this is a different world, I only welcome those who show they can be trusted and it starts by abiding by the legal process which is in place to screen out the undesirables