[Kezzah]

I am aware that this is a weird question (or series of questions). Let us imagine a creature (probably alien to this planet) to which urine is deadly (probably explosively so). I imagine this would be because urine contains urea. Furthermore, I imagine that this hypothetical creature's physiological make-up would involve nitric acid. That's as far as my chemistry knowledge goes. Is there anything that anyone can postulate about the nature of this creature? What are its survival needs? What would be a suitable environment for it? What conditions would it need for life? What conditions, substances and things on this planet would it need to survive and what would it have to avoid? How would its physical form be dictated by its chemistry? What else must logically follow from this hypothesis? All thoughts gratefully received. Many thanks.

[CravenMorhead]

First off, define deadly. Poison? Acidic? Neurotoxic?

It also depends if this is a defense mechanism or if it is just waste management. If it is a defense mechanism I would imagine that their urine would be the same as a terrestrial creature, but would have glands that excrete the toxic substance. The creature would also have to be immune to its own poisons. Think of a poisonous snake, except in the genital region.

It's survival needs would the same as any creature. Environment? You decide. Creatures adapt to what they're given not the other way around. Conditions for life, same as any other creature. You're asking a lot of questions that have no answer.

What is this for?

[smoothy]

Since this is hypothetical... then hypothetically.. it sounds like it could be a homework question to gauge your thinking process more than to actually arrive at a fixed answer.

[Kezzah]

Nope, not a homework question. My school assignments were never that kooky. Just an idea I had and then wondered where it might lead.

[Kezzah]

First off, define deadly. Poison? Acidic? Neurotoxic?

It also depends if this is a defense mechanism or if it is just waste management. If it is a defense mechanism I would imagine that their urine would be the same as a terrestrial creature, but would have glands that excrete the toxic substance. The creature would also have to be immune to its own poisons. Think of a poisonous snake, except in the genital region.

It's survival needs would the same as any creature. Environment? You decide. Creatures adapt to what they're given not the other way around. Conditions for life, same as any other creature. You're asking a lot of questions that have no answer.

What is this for?

It's just a thought process I am running with. I didn't mean the creature's urine though. In War of the Worlds, the invading aliens are undone by Earth's bacteria - something they have no defence against. I wondered what biochemistry a creature might have to possess for say, human urine to be deadly to it. I vaguely knew that urine had explosive properties - or rather - under the right conditions one could make black powder from urine, as happened historically. Hence, I discovered nitric acid might need to be involved in this creature's physiology.

As a defence mechanism, blowing up when someone pees on you is intriguing, but a Darwinian cul-de-sac, I fear.

You do raise the very interesting notion that I hadn't considered at all though, namely, if urine is deadly to this creature, what chemicals constitute its own excreta? Hmm...

Since this is hypothetical... then hypothetically.. it sounds like it could be a homework question to gauge your thinking process more than to actually arrive at a fixed answer.

Nope, not a homework question. My school assignments were never that kooky. Just an idea I had and then wondered where it might lead.

[smoothy]

I've had kookier 37 years ago in my Senior year of High School (my physics teacher was good at giving this sort of thing)... its a way of using an abstract question to judge your knowledge on a topic... that really has no answer. Or might have multiple possibilities.

[Kezzah]

I've had kookier 37 years ago in my Senior year of High School (my physics teacher was good at giving this sort of thing)... its a way of using an abstract question to judge your knowledge on a topic... that really has no answer. Or might have multiple possibilities.

Yes, I see. In this case, I appear to have set myself an abstract question that is beyond my current knowledge.

[smoothy]

Yes, I see. In this case, I appear to have set myself an abstract question that is beyond my current knowledge.

Don't get me wrong... that was the most interesting teacher I've ever had and found that class captivating without the usually mindless fact and formula memorization that can easily bore a person to tears. Every person can adapt their own thought process to the topic at hand... as there is no one single correct approach to it.

Pick one aspect of it you might be abl to find something about , like what type of substances might react with Urine of components in urine...start to build and expand from that.

Nobody looks at something and develops a theory about everything all at once....they start with what they know...expand upon that...and eventually fill in the gaps with theories.

[Kezzah]

Thanks for the great advice Smoothy, I'll do that.

[CravenMorhead]

It's just a thought process I am running with. I didn't mean the creature's urine though. In War of the Worlds, the invading aliens are undone by Earth's bacteria - something they have no defence against. I wondered what biochemistry a creature might have to possess for say, human urine to be deadly to it. I vaguely knew that urine had explosive properties - or rather - under the right conditions one could make black powder from urine, as happened historically. Hence, I discovered nitric acid might need to be involved in this creature's physiology.

As a defence mechanism, blowing up when someone pees on you is intriguing, but a Darwinian cul-de-sac, I fear.

The problem is that urea is reasonable chemically inert. There would have to be a spectacular chemical reaction to occur for it to be explosive or deadly. That isn't that say that it couldn't exist, but considering most logical ideas of how life develops and evolutions, as well as Occum's Razor, it is highly unlikely. You're also mixing biology and chemistry. As well the aliens in War of the Worlds were felled by single celled organisms, not bacteria. A small but important distinction.

It's an idea, but would need a vast amount of science and puesdoscience behind it for it to be workable.

You do raise the very interesting notion that I hadn't considered at all though, namely, if urine is deadly to this creature, what chemicals constitute its own excreta? Hmm...

Nope, not a homework question. My school assignments were never that kooky. Just an idea I had and then wondered where it might lead.

Cool.

[Kezzah]

The problem is that urea is reasonable chemically inert. There would have to be a spectacular chemical reaction to occur for it to be explosive or deadly. That isn't that say that it couldn't exist, but considering most logical ideas of how life develops and evolutions, as well as Occum's Razor, it is highly unlikely. You're also mixing biology and chemistry. As well the aliens in War of the Worlds were felled by single celled organisms, not bacteria. A small but important distinction.

It's an idea, but would need a vast amount of science and puesdoscience behind it for it to be workable.

Cool.

Thanks for the heads up on the difference between bacteria and micro-organisms. I am more than happy to rely on pseudoscience as long as there is some sort of approximate grounding in science in the idea too. It's got to be at least kind of feasible.

The internet informs me that the CIA and insurgents in Iraq and Israel have made IEDs using urea and nitric acid to make urea nitrate. Apparently, the 1993 bombing attempt on the World Trade Centre comprised 1200 pounds of urea nitrate. The charmingly named 'piss bomb' can apparently be made from boiling down 10 cups of urine to 1 cup and adding nitric acid.

So, I guess I'm on the right track with those 2 chemicals in my theoretical alien creature. Apparently the presence of aluminium powder helps too, so I guess the creature could have traces of aluminium in its physiology too.

Thanks for your input CravenMorhead. I'll keep cogitating.

[CravenMorhead]

Just remember to reason what could or could not exist in the natural world as a logical evolutionary process. Any explosive process also needs an energy input for a catalyst. IE, blasting cap for your piss bomb. While you might be able to create an explosive material it could be REALLY hard to use that material as an explosive, especially if this creature wanted to survive the blast.

[talaniman]

Maybe this can add to your thinking

Science Minus Details: Why Pee is Cool - entry #3 - "Explosive Urination" or "Gunpowder Comes from Pee!!!"

An alien bananimal with a high core body temperature maybe?

[Kezzah]

Maybe this can add to your thinking

Science Minus Details: Why Pee is Cool - entry #3 - "Explosive Urination" or "Gunpowder Comes from Pee!!!"

An alien bananimal with a high core body temperature maybe?

Thanks for the link talaniman and the idea about high core body temperature - I hadn't thought of that!