[Gtrshop]

Hello...

I have had water supply issues over the last year or so. I'm sure they are related somehow, but not sure exactly how. When I say water supply, I mean the pressure system inside the house, not the actual well supply.

Let me explain what the current situation is.

Pump cut-on is supposed to be 30 and cut-off is supposed to be 50.

Yesterday I drained down my pressure tank and recharged it. The pressure at the gauge on the tank was dropping below the cut-in point. I turned the supply off to the house (after the pressure tank) isolating the system to only well, pump, and pressure tank. All water was drain out of tank. Tank was re-pressurized to 28psi.

Which I pressurized the tank the air gauge on the filler hose read 28 PSI, but the water gauge read 0. I'm assuming this was correct, since there was no water in the tank.

I also swapped out the brass bolt on the top of the pump (this is used for priming) with another on the side of the pump because threads were worn off. I lost some water when I swapped these two out.

I also installed a check valve between pump and tank. There was no check valve in this system anywhere.

I had to re-prime the pump, which I did yesterday.

What is happening right now is that the pump is not cutting in at 30, and it is cutting out slightly above 50 however when it cuts out, it short cycles... it runs until it hits the high limit, and then it short cycles 2 to 3 seconds on, and about 1 second off. It will eventually stop, but I can see the brass plate inside the pump switch (the thing with the contacts and two adjuster nuts) bouncing.

Yes I have been trying to adjust the two pump switch springs, but don't think I've quite got it right yet. From what its doing I think I still have to raise the cut-on (the number 1 nut) and then back off the #2 nut, since the high limit is too high.

My tank just finished filling it cut off at just over 50, but has been short cycling for about 5 minutes. It just stopped doing that for about 20 seconds, and has again started sort cycling for the interval mention above.

I'm capable of performing repairs, however, I'm at the end of my troubleshooting abilities with pump systems.

[jlisenbe]

How far from the tank is the switch? Three or four feet is the max. Anymore than that and pressure will "bounce" some.

How many pipes go into the well, one or two?

[Gtrshop]

The switch sits on the side of the pump, atop the pressure tank. The well - as I have recently learned - is a Sand Point. Apparently, where I live, everyone uses these without issues. Only one line comes from it. I've only been here 2 years, I think most of the reno's including the water system, were done improperly. I'm trying to get on top of these things once and for all.

[Gtrshop]

Attachment 47321

[jlisenbe]

Attachment 47321

If I'm seeing this right, the black line comes from the well, and the braided line goes to the tank. If so, why do you have a CV in the line going to the tank? I would have expected to see it in the line going to the well. Was this a problem before the CV install?

Set your tank pressure at 2# below the actual cut in point, which is, as I understand it, not at 30 but a little below 30. If it's 27, for instance, then set the tank at 25.

You can see that there is some distance from the switch to the tank, and that might be causing the bounce. You might try just buying another switch and installing it on the T at the tank. You could then use it and just leave the unused switch where it is.

[Gtrshop]

The bounce is new, but I've made so many adjustments to the switch... I figured that it was related to adjustments. The length of the line hasn't been a problem before.
The CV was (newly) installed (yesterday while the water was off) to prevent the tank from draining back to the pump. There were issues last year that cause me to think this was happening. (there's more history to the problems).

I thought about replacing the switch, but I hate just replacing something that is working. I've also been told to replace the pump, the tank, but nothing points to anything actually being wrong with them. If you think that the CV is improperly located, I will have to get a union, and drain the system to replace it. My concern is that I had to re-prime the pump this morning, despite not using water since about 8PM last night.

As far as the cut-off pressure, it's supposed to be 30. I pressurized the tank to 28PSI because of that... but the pump switch isn't coming on at 30. This is a recent, abnormal behavior.

One other thing... the pump runs for a long time. I've been reading a couple minutes is the norm, this one runs a lot longer than that to make up pressure. Opinions on that|?

[jlisenbe]

The tank seems OK from what you have said. How old is the pump? That might have some impact on the slow cycles. No larger than your tank is, the cycles should be fairly short.

Moving the switch is relatively easy and not expensive at 30 bucks or so. You can use the old switch as a template of how to wire it.

But I would first be sure the tank is pressurized correctly. Watch the gauge until the pump cuts on. That will tell you your starting point. Set the tank at 2# below that. First turn off the system and drain tank pressure to zero by opening a low level faucet.

I think the CV will work OK where you have it, but they are usually placed on the other side of the pump to prevent, as you stated, the tank from simply draining back into the well when the pump cuts off. But with the CV where you have it, I would think it would interfere with the switch being able to "read" the tank pressure properly since the CV could possibly prevent the pressure from dropping/rising on the pump side of the CV. Not sure of that, but it would seem to make sense.

[Gtrshop]

I drained the tank again last night. Replace the old pressure gauge with a new one.
Verified the tank pressure and added a few punds to bring it up to 28 PSI

I removed the CV, put a valve in its place. You can never have too many valves.
The bouncing stopped.

The pump wanted to run to about 50PSI and shut off, which is good.

The pump will not cycle to on however. We had a lot of dishes and laundry to get to, so I didn't have a lot of troubleshooting time, so I sat with the laundry room door open and when the water pressure dropped to around 30PSI, I manually tripped the switch to get the pump to come on.

Once I have all this sorted out, I will put the CV in the pump inlet side of the line.

What waould be causing the pump not to come on?

And what would cause cloudy water (air) at the same time?

[jlisenbe]

Pull the grey cover off the switch and let a faucet run. You should hear a "click" when the switch cuts on. In fact, you will be able to see the points move and engage. If that does not happen, then there is a problem with the switch. The cloudy water probably is the result of air entering the lines when you took off the CV. It will probably clear up in a few days. However, you mentioned something earlier that worried me, the part about the pump taking a long time to cycle. That, and the cloudy water, could indicate a falling water table.

[Gtrshop]

Thanks for replying. The cover is off the switch, and I know the contacts you're referring to. Since doing the other work I haven't let the pump fall to below 30PSI (where it should cut in, but doesn't). Part of the problem is just that, it doesn't cut in. I'm home today and its time to replace water filters, so I'll be working on this today, so I'll have time (and my son for a helper).

Well (no pun intended) the water supply is from a Sand Point. I'm told all my neighbours use them, and there isn't a water supply issue. It would be my luck that I'd have the one house with a problem.

When the pump cuts on (say first thing in the morning) You can hear the suction as the pump draws water up the inlet pipe. Often lately I've had to go through an exercise to get water to pump up...

Here's what happens: pump comes on and I watch gauge (which has just been replaced), if pump doesn't start making more pressure I manually turn pump off. With a wrench I keep by the pump for just this purpose, I crack open the brass bolt on top of the pump. I've learned that opening this slowly will release air. I open it enough to release the air that is inside (the pump). Tighten nut, turn pump back on. Watch pressure (and listen to water in the inlet pipe).

I may have to do this 3, 4, or ever 5 times to get pump to start making pressure. I know I shouldn't have to do this, but can't figure out why I am having to.

[jlisenbe]

This is where you need your CV on the well side of the pump. That will prevent your losing prime as you describe. Losing prime also explains the cloudiness you see in your water. The pump is drawing air initially. It also means you are getting air in the tank UNDER the bladder, which you don't want. That could be affecting your switch operation. When you get down to around 30, you should plainly hear a click as the points come in contact. If you don't hear/see that, then you have a problem with the switch.

Move the CV first, and then address the switch problem. If you can, position the CV several feet away from the pump.

BTW, to prime the pump properly, remove the plug from the top of the pump and pour in water until it will hold no more. Replace the plug and turn on the pump. But be aware that you cannot do this unless you either have a working CV somewhere between the pump and the wellhead, or a good foot valve. Not too sure about driven wells, but I don't think they have one.

[Gtrshop]

I've removed the CV entirely. AS you may have guessed, I'm trying to figure out a system that was improperly installed - by previous owners. I've also been dealing with an iron issue, and have installed a pair of filter units after the tank. They are now located between a pair of shut off valves, and just yesterday I added a gauge so I can see the pressure difference after filters.

I have access to about 10 feet of black pipe before it disappears out of the mechanical room. I can cut the line there and put in the CV there, but that will have to wait as I've lost my helper for a few days. I also want to replace the black pipe with re-enforced clear tubing... mostly so I can monitor what's happening in the water prior to pump. Also the re-enforced stuff is easier to work with.

[jlisenbe]

OK. Let us know how it goes. The CV will be helpful to you.

[Gtrshop]

OK, so I've made some chages to the plumbing.

1 - removed CV (that was located between pump and tank) Replaced with a shutoff valve (has come in very handy).
2 - Moved CV to 10' before the pump. Replaced Black Pipe (between CV and pump) with Clear re-enforced type. Lets me see what's going on.
3 - With this pipe I've made a loop... the idea was to catch air before the pump. THis didnt work so well.....

I am surprised by how much air I'm getting. It's coming from before the CV... Since I can see it after the valve.

So, this is my question today, that none of my contractor friends can answer...

Since I cut the main well line, it was of course emptied of all the water that was in it./ Naturally this was replaced with air. Then a check valve added. Now that I think of it, The air is probably captive in the line from when I installed the CV, and I'm guessing to further troubleshoot I'm going to have to prime the entire line before the CV. Does this make sense? There is anywhere from between 20 and 40 feet of horizontal pipe, if I include the stuff on the pump side of the CV. I'm guessing All of that has to be flooded or filled to displace the air I let in when I cut through the pipe. This could possibly included whatever length of pipe goes down to the sand point. That I'm not sure about.

[jlisenbe]

OK, so I've made some chages to the plumbing.

1 - removed CV (that was located between pump and tank) Replaced with a shutoff valve (has come in very handy).
2 - Moved CV to 10' before the pump. Replaced Black Pipe (between CV and pump) with Clear re-enforced type. Lets me see what's going on.
3 - With this pipe I've made a loop... the idea was to catch air before the pump. THis didnt work so well.....

I am surprised by how much air I'm getting. It's coming from before the CV... Since I can see it after the valve.

So, this is my question today, that none of my contractor friends can answer...

Since I cut the main well line, it was of course emptied of all the water that was in it./ Naturally this was replaced with air. Then a check valve added. Now that I think of it, The air is probably captive in the line from when I installed the CV, and I'm guessing to further troubleshoot I'm going to have to prime the entire line before the CV. Does this make sense? There is anywhere from between 20 and 40 feet of horizontal pipe, if I include the stuff on the pump side of the CV. I'm guessing All of that has to be flooded or filled to displace the air I let in when I cut through the pipe. This could possibly included whatever length of pipe goes down to the sand point. That I'm not sure about.

When the pump shuts off, there is no reason for air to enter the wellpipe unless it is coming in through the pipe in the well or through a leak in the pipe. Even after you cut the pipe, the first time the pump cuts on afterwards should fill the wellpipe with water and pull any air out. To be sure, as you have already seen, you can disconnect the CV, fill the wellpipe with water, and put it back together ASAP. That should eliminate all but a little air, which will be pumped out during the first cycle.

Ordinarily, wells have a device at the bottom of the well called a footvalve, which functions as a CV and does not allow the water in the pipe to leak out between pump cycles. I'm not familiar with sandpoint wells, but my impression is that they don't have one. Rather, the pipe is driven ten or twenty feet down, with the bottom couple of feet being perforated to allow water in. I assume that air cannot get to the point, so that would not be a problem, but perhaps it is with yours. Since the pipe is driven, I would think it would not be possible for air to get in at the bottom since I would assume that would be filled with water, but maybe it can.

So, air is getting in somewhere. The problem is to find out where and that can be a challenge.

At least the CV must be working since the system seems to be holding prime.

[Gtrshop]

I noticed before I made the changes that if I was away for a day or two the pressure in the tank was usually at 50PSI. SO I wouldn't have thought there was a leak...

The CV is working, and yes the pump doesn't lose prime... right off the bat, but it does once it sucks enough air in. If someone has a shower for example... I have to get pump to run and make sure the water in the loop ahead of pump is at least falling over the top of the loop (The water that comes ouyt of the pump does not blast out of it... THe pipe is only filled maybe 1/2 full... the rest is a trapped air bubble... If not I have to use the tank to re fill the pump and the line in front of pump and try again. 2 or 3 times and I can usually leave it alone. THis will get us through whatever water demand is happening, and as long as it runs its fine, but I'm sure the pump is cavitating... the cloudy water (air in the water) attests to that.

[jlisenbe]

I think your problem is pretty apparent. You are holding prime from the CV to the pump, but not from the CV to the well, and that is where the air is coming from. If I understand sand point wells correctly, if the water drops below the bottom section (which is perforated and has an inner screen to keep out sand/silt but let in water), then the well can then draw air and you will have problems. That would seem to be your case. Just make sure, as much as you can, that you do not have any pipes leaking between the CV and the well.

You might want to open the well pipe and use a weighted string to see how far down you have to go to water. I would think you would like to have several feet of water in the pipe bottom.

[Gtrshop]

Im beginning to see what is apparent, yes, but it's taken this much time, and the above mentioned changes, to start explaining what's going on.

The remainder of the black pipe is behind drywall in the house, and the actual location of the sand point is not exactly known. If I have to open the wall to get at the line, then that might give me some idea where the well is. I wonder if moving the CV to as close to where the well is would make the situation any better, or does that just delay the pump losing prime longer? TH further down the well line I go, the more expensive a permanent solution seems to get.

Do you think my well is running dry? I can't imagine it, all the sand we sit on here, and all the other neighbours are good for water supply (and most use sand points)...

[jlisenbe]

It's hard to say. Yeah, I would put a CV as close to the wellhead as possible, but the idea of a sandpoint , as I understand it, is this. When the pump cuts off, some water will drain back into the well, but so long as the perforated section is under water, there is no way for air to enter, and you will simply have a partial vacuum in the wellpipe. When the pump cuts back on, there is simply no air in the lines. That's why I'm thinking you either have a leak, or the water is not permanently covering the well point.

I would think that finding the well would not be difficult. The pipe is literally driven into the ground, and there is some small amount of pipe above ground to hook into. I suppose it could be under the house, but that would seem to me to be really strange. Surely it's outside somewhere.

I might add that, based on what I've read, it is rather common for people to simply add five feet of pipe to the well and drive it down that much farther, but first you would have to find the well. And once you do, you might discover that the black pipe has a problem and thus an easy fix.

[Gtrshop]

I have a rough Idea where the well is, but there is nothing visible above ground. The pipe runs through the wall in my daughters room, and there is a flower bed between her room and my sons room. Pretty good bet that it's there, the thing is its down 6 feet... I guess I'm doing sone digging soon.