[Catsmine]

Our big weakness has been ignoring the geopolitical economic manipulation of certain states/countries.

Your memory is very short. The Jihad of the Sword has been the predominant struggle since the prophet was exiled from Mecca.

[talaniman]

Enlighten us.

[tomder55]

Our big weakness has been ignoring the geopolitical economic manipulation of certain states/countries. The ideology is MO" MONEY, hidden in fear and drummed up as distraction.

Follow the money!

But you will never be able to convince lefties of that ,where in the dialectic, the divide of the material world is the sole root of all conflict . All that Islamists need to be peaceful is multicultural laws and a generous welfare state.... right ?

I rest my case .

[talaniman]

Capitalistic democracy would be a start.

[paraclete]

Realism would be a start, do you really think the arabs want to swap the benevolent dictatorships of the Saudi and the gulf for having to do some work but these states are sponsors of the salifisti jihad and the west is happy for them to have their proxy war. The extension of this is jihadist attacks in the west. The whole of this was caused by a capitalist democracy involving itself in Afghanistan and then stationing troops in the Arabian Peninsula, to suggest that the problem can be solved by the same capitalist democracy is to fail to understand the last thirty years

[talaniman]

Realism Clete is recognizing the whole Islamic people are not your enemy. Let's start there, and keep it real. Even you have written of the ideology of a small sect being extreme.

Would we be involved in Afghanistan if we weren't looking for a criminal? I doubt it. Not militarily at least.

[tomder55]

The whole of this was caused by a capitalist democracy involving itself in Afghanistan and then stationing troops in the Arabian Peninsula, to suggest that the problem can be solved by the same capitalist democracy is to fail to understand the last thirty years

Blame America first . What rubbish ! So you are saying there would be no jihadists attacks on the west if we hadn't supported Afghans against the Russians ;or if we had let Saddam take Kuwait uncontested ? The history Cats is talking about goes back centuries. Mohammed gave his marching orders in the 5th and 6th Centuries AD . Muslim expansion by the sword into Europe preceded the Crusades too by 200-300 years ;and Muslim persecution of Christians before that .

[talaniman]

Many Empires have waxed and waned in human history. Some by conquest, some by alliances against common enemies. Before Christianity there was the Roman Empire. They did there own persecution as well as the Jews. And lets not forget the Mongolians, who also took Europe by the sword, and had the largest empire in history for a hundred years or so.

Pick your conqueror, history is full of them. Pick your persecutor, history is full of those too!

[paraclete]

Blame America first . What rubbish ! So you are saying there would be no jihadists attacks on the west if we hadn't supported Afghans against the Russians ;or if we had let Saddam take Kuwait uncontested ? The history Cats is talking about goes back centuries. Mohammed gave his marching orders in the 5th and 6th Centuries AD . Muslim expansion by the sword into Europe preceded the Crusades too by 200-300 years ;and Muslim persecution of Christians before that .

Tom where do you get your history from, The Byzantine empire fell to the Muslim is 1453, two centuries after the crusades were over. If you look at wars attributed to Mudhutmad you find they were hardly more than skermishes and raids. Basically the muslims filled a vacuum until they took Jerusalem, which offended the Christians

I was pointing out to Tal that capitalist democracy wasn't the solution it is the problem. This is because it is insensitive to other systems of social organisation. I was not suggesting that aggression shouldn't be opposed. Saddam could not be allowed to take Kuwait because he was expansionist, but america fought the Saudi war for it to serve the interests of capitalist democracy, Saddam was bad for business. That same capitalist democracy backed him in his war against Iran because it suited them, so if we follow their example it leads to bad outcomes. Once he was put in his place there was no need for continued occupation of the arabian peninsular and that is what I was speaking about. It was that continued presence that gave rise to al qaeda

[paraclete]

Many Empires have waxed and waned in human history. Some by conquest, some by alliances against common enemies. Before Christianity there was the Roman Empire. They did there own persecution as well as the Jews. And lets not forget the Mongolians, who also took Europe by the sword, and had the largest empire in history for a hundred years or so.

Pick your conqueror, history is full of them. Pick your persecutor, history is full of those too!

Tal, we have no perfect system of government and capitalist democracy too will pass, to suggest it is the solution is to ignore that history you cite. What is happening is we are evolving and this is a way station. What I understand is democracy produces a situation where empass is created and throughout history this republican form of government has given way to empire and a single strong leader.

[talaniman]

Can you back that up with fact or a few links?

[paraclete]

Well you could start with the Romans and then there was Napoleon, Britain was another example as was Germany, each one of these empires has ultimately fallen. Some had brief encounters with democracy, others longer periods. All were typied by some form of capitalism, that is private ownership of industry. Rome, or the Roman system, lasted 2000 years as it developed and changed others much less. In its first 1000 years Rome conquered the world, it spent it's second defending its shrinking borders. Your own republic, after 200 years, is progressing towards empire, whereas my own nation has yet to evolve into a republic but give us time.

What we need to contemplate is that each of these great nations or empires had their golden age, but have not risen again. It seems they expend so much of their capital, both intellectual and wealth and find decline. They weary of war and are content to be governed by rules that others make

[tickle]

So you are siting ancient history, clete, and no sites as tal asked for. I know ancient history, clete.

[paraclete]

Tickle whilst you may have had a classical education I suspect many have not and sometimes need reminding, as to sites that provide historical insight, there are many on the web and Tal can do his own research. If he does so he can then refute what I say if he finds contrary evidence. We have lost track of the thread which was about people of a certain persuasion leaving if they are unhappy with the freedoms we enjoy in western society. They forget very easily that where they come from they do not enjoy freedom of speech but are cloned from birth. As a man thinks so is he