[upintheskyguy420man]

So I live in VT and was placed on probation. One time I was given a violation of probation and my PO kept asking how I was going to plead to it every time I was in his office. I got uncomfortable at one point and told him that was my business, not his, and he yelled at me. I then started trying to come in and let him know I would be video recording. Since then a higher-up told me I couldn't do that like he did, then changed it to say "you can do that, but you have to give us a copy of it."

The following week I forgot my USB cord to transfer the file, which I still felt they had no right to demand, so I just decided to wait until the following week. That week I let him know I had the cable and was going to record, but hadn't turned on the camera yet. He told me to take a left so he could give me a UA. I hadn't been arrested yet, nor told I was arrested or being detained. As I took the left he grabbed my camera and handed it to another FSU officer. Said to him, "make sure that's off. Make sure that's off."

I'm getting really scared and don't know what to do. I want to keep recording him as he seems really out of control. There is even a seriously menacing looking twitch in his eye every time he seems angry I'm not doing as he pleases even in legal matters that are not his to mettle with or ask about.

Last time I went into his office (after over 2 weeks of having me sign report in forms instead of see him) he told me that he "called up north and they told me to have a local meetin' about it. So we had a local meetin' and they decided they don't want ya doin that anymore. With the video camera."

If video recording my interaction has nothing to do with my charges and no court has imposed anything against it, nothing is in my probation conditions that I've signed in regards to it, can he constitutionally keep me from recording what happens in my day as long as I've let him know I'm recording?

Thank you any and all who can shed light!

[Fr_Chuck]

You will be going back to jail or prison, just be prepared, they will find and look for vioalations.

How you are going to plead is their buisnesss since they have to prepare the paper work for the judge. So you being a "problem" for them just makes their job harder.

I was surprised you were not violated again for not anwering him.

There is no civil right to record, and I doubt you have a right to video record inside their office. They do have legal right to search you, ( search your home) anytime they want to. ( they do not need a warant)

You had better learn to get on the program, of just pack up to go to jail

[upintheskyguy420man]

How I plan to plead to a charge against me in court is not his business FR. That is to do with myself and my attorney. He even went as far as to ask me what my attorney said and still wouldn't back down without an answer. That is not constitutionally sound. Freedom of press gives me the right to record anything as long as it doesn't make me an accomplice to a crime by doing it.

I had better learn to get on the program and not be able to have a private conversation with an attorney either I'll bet, huh? You've made no sense here Chuck. Whether it says "expert" next to your name or not.

Me being a person who stands up for his own rights is not "being a problem." You might not believe this, but my PO is one of the only officials who listened to an audio recording of what police claim to be my victim, was really my attacker. He's one of the only people who knows that I'm literally innocent of my crime. I brought an SD card with all kinds of evidence to that effect. How I am going to plead only becomes my PO's business when he is standing on the side of the prosecution and court has gone into session, not for months every time I went into his office.

[smoothy]

Your probation officer is an officer of the court, and as such it is his business as you are assigned to him.

The problem here is you seem to think there are no repercussions for your actions... which is very, very wrong. You are going to be on the losing end of any shoving match you start. Because everything say and how you act... will be relayed to the DA and the court and it reflects badly upon you.

Incidentally... Fr_Chuck is ex law enforcement and knows quite well how these things work, but then, maybe you have to learn the hard way. He was only offereing you advice that will help you. They like the police are legally entitled to ask you anythign they want... some of it you have to answer, some of it you don't have to answer... and you also need to seriously read some laws. Are you a member of the press, do you actually have press credentials? Do you understand that a PO office is not public space, and the laws about recording without concent apply where there is no expectation to a right to privacy, which would be in the mall, maybe even in the parking lot, but not inside their office.

I agree with Fr_Chuck... you are begging for them to find any reason to put you in jail... and you might even end up giving them new reasons to do it.

Seriously dial back the attitude a few notches... calm down... and listen. You are only going to end up hurting yourself and your own case if you don't.

[upintheskyguy420man]

So Chuck is ex-law enforcement, and officials are supposed to be able to ask questions that you don't have to answer, then when you don't answer ask again until you do? All that points to is Chuck being the same kind of bully and not having a problem pressing people on matters that they shouldn't have to answer. He may as well be my PO himself.

You know, I happen to have a grievance form from a few years ago signed by myself and the head of probation and parole stating "there is nothing stopping you from recording your PO." It was stamped too. So you can tell me I need to calm down. I'm not angry at either of you. I just want answers that make sense. And "your PO has the right to know what you said to your attorney" (what it sounds like you're saying at first) doesn't make any.

It also makes I should have to tell anything about how I'm going to plead in court to my PO, or that you would state you can't believe I didn't get another violation for not (wanting to, but having eventually did anyway) tell my PO what my plans were for going to court. He had his suggestion of what court should do. I had what my attorney advised me to do. Where can you make a connection that takes the sense out of that enough to say you are surprised I'm not violated just for that. If you are surprised that my PO didn't abuse his power and violate me for 5th amendment rights, then I agree with you. A PO doesn't have to actually see you doing wrong or know about it to put you in jail. One just needs to spin a good enough story...

[upintheskyguy420man]

So... repercussions for what actions, might I ask? Being alive? Because I don't see anything wrong with letting my PO know that what I say to my attorney or how I proceed in my legal matters not being his business. I didn't realize there were repercussions for not telling my PO how I was going to plead. I brought in a recorder in the first place to show the posterity of my supervision. To show that I AM doing what I have to do. If you think that reflects badly upon me, it's because you assumed I'm another guilty convict who simply doesn't like having restrictions in life. That certainly isn't the case Mr. Smoothy. Anything I do in this matter won't be relayed to the court because my PO knows he is wrong or he wouldn't have "called up North." During the one video recorded meeting I have of him he repeatedly states he doesn't mind doing this if it will make me feel good about our working relationship and ability to proceed forward.

So I'm wondering if any of that changes what so far seems like narrow assumptions based on talking to those who were guilty in the first place. You don't have text messages and pictures, screenshots and video/audio recordings of someone admitting they hit you with a hammer, so that person not so much as getting a violation herself when hitting you with a hammer let alone a new charge, when she was on probation for hitting you in the first place and caught seeing you multiple times by her PO who did nothing about it and you were free at the time, would be equally out of your context in this conversation. I'm not some damned kid not wanting to accept what he has done. Learn that and you might just make an impact on this conversation.

[smoothy]

A PO has a lot of leeway in what they do... they can violate you on any little thing, or they might let it slide if it appears to be an honest mistake.

Its your PO's office... he can refuse to allow a visit to take place as long as you are recording, and it goes down as a missed visit... who do you think is going to win that one. There IS an expectation of privacy inside an office and your "right to record anyone anywhere" isn't unlimited, try taking a camera and a recording device into a courtroom sometime.

But do it your way... I can guarantee you its going to end badly for you.

THey have a lot of power... and you don't... and you insist on poking them making them prove what they CAN do... and how little you can do about it. They have that power, backed by the law and the courts just for the purpose that there are some people that don't listen and insist on causeing problems by refusing to follow the rules. Sort of like you are demonstrating here.

Personaly... I have no skin in this... I don't care if they throw the book at you or not... just trying to get you to see that you show respect in front of them, you do what they tell you to do... and smile... once you get home, scream and yeall all you want... but you are not going to win the battle, and you are only going to make them go as hard on you as they can. And what will that accomplish exactly? Not what you want that is certain.

DO you think you can win against a cop that pulls you over to give you a ticket by arguing with them? Nope. How you present yourself and what respect you show is reflected in what happens next.

I've walked away with warnings from more than a few speeding tickets... and several were 20+ over the limit... and the rest were written up for significantly lower than I was pulled over for. Because I talk to them and behave in the right way that puts them at ease. If I argued Id get that and every other little thing they could find to write me up on... that is the point I'm trying to get across here... how this goes is completely up to you, you can make it easy or very, very hard for yourself.

[upintheskyguy420man]

You are right Mr. Smoothy that they have a lot of power and I don't. But just because that is so doesn't mean I should never stick up for myself when they abuse that power. This isn't a shoving match. I just want to show I'm doing what I can on my probation. I didn't know about the public property portion, so on that you do have me.

Sort of like I am doing here? What rules am I not following? Because the more you argue this the more it will seem like you don't know what attorney/client privilege is.

Your scenario involving a cop pulling me over is a horrible metaphor, my friend. I've seen 20 videos of men who's rights were abused that took a video of it and got away from the mess of trouble it would have caused had they not been recording. If I was pulled over driving down the street I would be in public and there would be nothing the officer could do should I let him know I was recording him. Presenting yourself with a video camera, staying calm, not yelling, expressing basic normal concerns as I always do, is THE BEST way to present yourself. Not doing all that but not recording so you can't prove you didn't do anything wrong anyway.

I talked to him as any normal human being for almost a year before he started treating me this way. Funny thing is, before I had shown him the evidence and my story could be deemed as just that- a story, he was always good with me. Once I brought the evidence to his office and told him that I was in fear of waking up each day, as backwards as it could be, he started pressing me and trying to screw me over around every corner.

I put his mind at ease the best I could, for almost a year. I was in absolutely no way resistant to anything he asked me until his tone of voice changed to yelling after telling him my attorney recommended I plead "not guilty" to his violation, and he got worse. And since then I haven't been "resistant to supervision," simply want to be able to show when I AM doing what I'm supposed to.

Arguing with a cop who had no reason to detain or arrest you, when video recording, is often the way to win. If they give you an order you DON'T HAVE TO follow, and you let them know your rights, they get pissed and their true nature of bullying people comes out. Let them show their true nature. If I keep mine well-meaning and friendly, even if I am in disagreement to the actions of my PO, it will be how HE acts that is shown in court. THAT is certain.

[odinn7]

Funny...you're arguing with the wrong people here. These people are trying to help you see the way things work. Right or wrong, it's how they work and you will wind up losing if you're not careful. So I see it...you're arguing with people trying to help so I wonder how you are acting with your PO...probably pissing him off because you think you can show him what the law is. You talk about freedom of the press...there is no such thing in your case or this situation. You are on probation and, in effect, your PO owns you until you are off probation. It is what it is whether you like it or not...agree with it or not.

Why don't you approach your attorney about this situation and ask him about it?

Now I'll sit here waiting for you to argue with me and tell me that I'm wrong.

[upintheskyguy420man]

Haha. Sarcastically played, odinn. I've approached many attorneys about this. They are skeptics like you guys. I have only let you know that there is nothing wrong with wanting what is said to my attorney to stay there. I've retracted that freedom of press applies to "anywhere," so you aren't making a dent there. I'm only telling you that you are wrong if you are saying that constitutionally I have no right to withhold what I've said to my attorney.

Mr. Odinn. Those who misinform me to think that I should be some guy's little toy to toss around, I'm going to argue with. If one would like to call it a "shoving match," then it started a long time ago when I was absolutely nothing but compliant in every way.

The man gave me a violation because I was around the person who hit me again and it was against my probation. I didn't argue with him then. I didn't argue with him the next week, or week after that. I still was entirely forthcoming about every detail and answered all questions asked until he started pressing me to tell him what was discussed between my attorney and myself.

I would hope that if my PO was arguing that he has all the power and I have none and I told him that I have rights to speech or lack-there-of, it wouldn't be seen as "arguing with your PO" to say "Mr. so and so, that is the business of my attorney and myself." Just as my PO is being resistant to me having any rights, so are you. I'm not the resistant one here. I didn't flip out on him or treat him any different when he violated me when there was EVEN A WAY he could say I had done wrong. Though I was hit with a hammer last year, though I did not commit the crime charged to me, I still accepted that I had broken a rule and complied entirely until he yelled at me because I wanted to keep my legal information to myself.

[odinn7]

Hey, at least you'll know that you were right when you go to jail. That's all I'm saying.

[smoothy]

I think you are more determined to be a martyr than to get through this with as little punishment as possible.

You can't have it both ways. Just accept if you are going to be a martyr, you pay a high price for it... and you bear full responsibility for it.

Most of us just want to get through it as quickly and painlessly as possible.

If you didn't think I visuallized some of those trafficops impailed on a stake... you would be wrong. Keep hitting a pit bull with a stick, expect to get mauled. Then you can't blame the pit bull, because it was your fault.

Put a law enforcement official in a position where they even think there is a degree of risk to them... then they are going to come down hard on you.


The point being... thre is a time and place for everything. If you disagree with them and have a problem... do it in a courtroom. In their office, a police station or on the street... and its going to end bad for you. THey are going to react to any show of hostility towards them, and they had a gun, and a badge... and if its your word against theirs... they are going to be the ones that are believed absent proof to the contrary. And they are trained to assume the worst intentions. Because their lives depend on it.

Incidentally... martyrs usually end up dead or doing long prison sentences... sometimes in solitary on 23 hours a day lockdown.

That to me is losing, not winning.

Probation of Parole is all about making you follow the rules, jump through the hoops.. usually because people that end up there have a history of not following the rules (or laws) of society.

And incidentally... when you are in jail, or on probation or on parole. Your rights are curtailed to some degree.

Smile, shake your head, agree with them, try to be pleasant and it will go smoother, scowl, argue about everything, and be a general PITA, and they will take great pleasure in doing everything in their power to make it as hard on you as possible. Its your choice which, and incidentally... if you chose the latter, then its your fault, not theirs. Id you choose the former, and they still come down hard and heavy on you, then have your lawyer deal with it... you lose any moral high ground you may have had by being a PITA, because they can and will use it against you. And it WILL sabotage any case you may make otherwise.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. Its your choice which, because you are who will pay the price ultimately.

Ask your lawyer what you don't specifically HAVE to say to him... he has the right to ask everything, just as the police do. Yes there are some things you don't have to say, just as there are many things you DO have to say. But cop an attitude... and its going to go badly for you.

But like Odinn7 said... at least you alone will know you are right when you are going to jail. For whatever that might be worth to yourself. Because you will have justified to everyone else WHY you were being sent up the river.

You don't HAVE to like the game, but if you play it by the rules, and follow the rules... you have a chance of winning the game. Do you want to win the game?

[upintheskyguy420man]

You call this a "game." Clearly, it isn't. Nothing that involves serious implications to people's lives is a game. I watched a 2.5 year old boy be ruthlessly treated like crap and abused. Two of my good friends let this woman in question have their dog on a trial run, a wonderful-souled pitbull named "Chase."

I remember the woman telling me she scared the dog out of pooping inside, and that Chase now ate her own if she was left long enough to have to do it indoors, which seemed to always be the case when I wasn't taking her out for a walk.

By the end, the dog was afraid to poop OUTSIDE without eating it to get it out of sight. I watched her once call Chase in a bright chipper tone to her, pet Chase for a couple seconds, before smacking her and calling her a stupid skank and to go away.

You don't know my demeanor in my discussions with my PO. I have always been friendly AND compliant every time my rights weren't being violated. "or on the street... and its going to end bad for you." It was here I learned of the "public place" part of all this. Yet an officer of the peace doesn't generally have that expectation to privacy spoken of anyway.

I have to ask... if you knew there was a woman out there you could stop, and had witnessed such horror across the span of months, had evidence to show what really happened, you wouldn't want to make a stand?

[smoothy]

You know what... You aren't listening to anyone... and I for one am tired of trying to explain it to someone who won't listen to what's being said.

Do it your way, when, not if you end up in jail... you have only yourself to blame.

The world has rules... the law enforcement and legal system has very specific rules... you can play by them and get through it with much less pain, or you can fight them and make them want to make an example out of you. And trust me they can find something, or just get you upset and wait until you do it on your own in front of them. Basically get you to hang yourself. Its really easy to do with anyone that has anger management issues.


Its up to you which you prefer. Its clear you want them to make an example of you. Hope you feel its worth it when it happens.

Actions have consequences. And just because YOU think you have a certain right... doesn't mean you actually do. There are lots of people in prison because they believed they did. Its probibly the worst mistake a person can make. If you look to push the line... you are eventually going to cross it.

And I am guessing you don't have a law degree.

[upintheskyguy420man]

One does not need a law degree to see it from my viewpoint. The guy is out to get me at this point. He does have more power than I and isn't using it wisely. What is "being said" is that I should suck it up and take whatever happens without so much as documenting how it went down.

If I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't, and he has more power over things, why not at least get something to show I was what I was supposed to. As I said, I haven't been angry or yelled at him or been unfriendly. I keep my tone light, I am respectful. I say thank you after even the slightest nicety on his part, or any time he gives me useful information about programs or services that could help me get on the best track. Last I knew rules of law enforcement didn't state "it is illegal to record a government official." I'm not just arguing to argue over here. Just because you haven't given me the slightest bit of actual advice regarding the circumstance of recording in the first place, doesn't mean that I am being resistant or poking the bull or not accepting repercussions. There should be no repercussion for having a conversation with someone and wanting to document it. All you've told me is quite basically "your PO has power, don't try to do anything because since you disagree with us you must have been snotty to him." That's how the point you are making comes across.

There are a lot of people who don't have a "law degree" but enough understanding and experience to make a good case of things like this later. You want to play guessing? I'm guessing that all those people who were given compensation for what they want through, got help or advice from someone other than you. I'm sure the ones who listened to you strung up in a cell somewhere feeling hopeless because you instilled that that they have no right to stand up against anything. "Don't do anything and let yourself be taken advantage of when you can prove otherwise" is horrible advice. I hope you can understand why I see it this way.

[upintheskyguy420man]

I had an entire conversation with my PO and his Supervisor, they both tried to talk in circles to tell me I "can't be recording for posterity" because of see-through excuses that showed they really just didn't want me to. I will have you know that Vermont is a one-party consent state, gentlemen. That means I don't need his permission and am not constituted as committing a criminal activity unless I PHYSICALLY hinder him from doing his job by doing it. He may be able to search my things, he may be able to ask to view the recording. Or to have it seized as evidence if he felt there was a reason. But keep in mind, gentlemen. I wouldn't be walking in to my P.O.s office with a recorder in my hand clearly saying the words "I'm recording now" if I planned to act the fool in his office or presence. It seems to me that people here have already assumed the opposite, which is why they aren't able to give advice on the matter.


That entire conversation with my PO and his superior was recorded. I turned it on the moment I entered the hallway from the lobby, and let him know I was recording. When I got out of the bathroom from giving a UA, the camera was off. When I got home, the video of our conversation was removed. My father saw me turn the recorder on before I entered the lobby, he also saw me put the card in my computer the moment I got home to find nothing on it. My camera isn't faulty, the card wasn't even close to full, the battery not even near dead. There were at least 15 minutes of conversation there, and the entire time all I kept saying was that I am doing the best I can be doing, and that I want to be able to document that. That I want to be able to take posterity of my progress.

You act as if I see no possibility of going to jail. That isn't the case and I didn't say I wouldn't go if I had to. I asked you all how to go about doing that and if it was okay for me to, not how much power my PO had if he so felt like it.

I am already involved in a case regarding civil rights. This case, believe it or not, affects that one. All I wanted to know was if I was being constitutional or not. Older cases saw those who recorded without consent be sued for slander and other things because the recording was illegally taken, yet presented to public. I wanted to make sure if I was going to go down this road I wouldn't have to face that.

I seem to keep hearing "you're on probation, so you don't have any rights." And that just won't do, sir. Just will not do at all.

I think you disregard, Mr. Smoothy: I AM playing by the rules. It is they who are not, me who must prove it, and you who thinks I should let it get worse without even trying.

[J_9]

I'm not quite certain why you asked this question since you seem to have all the answers.

If you are as snippy with your PO as you are the volunteers at this site who are taking time out of their day to try to help you, I can see why you are being treated this way.

[smoothy]

You want to be a martyr, I believe you will get your wish.

I doubt you have the financial resources to pay for a legal dream team like OJ Simpson had the first time. Without one...your chances are slim.

My money is on you losing.

If you are doing this with a public defender or tring to defend yourself....you are guaranteed to lose.

[J_9]

Since the OP has all the answers and is unwilling to listen to reason, this thread is now closed.

[Fr_Chuck]

I will add this, I worked in the prisons, and saw men like this all the time, they end up doing solitary because they have to prove they are right.

The PO has the ear of the judge, and in hearings, the judge almost always does what the PO asks. If you try to disagree and fight issues with the PO, you will lose, you may win, you specific little issue, but they will have meetings without you there, they will do home searches, work searches ( all legal for them) and you can not record once you are handcuffed and they are searching.

You will go to jail, with this attitude, if the PO wants it. A PO can find a tech issue with almost anyone's Probation if they want to.

If you go to supervisors, or even higher in dept. they will back the PO, publicly. You will lose,