[mjdinsmore]

Hi!

I have a leaking Symmons shower value (S-96-1) for an outdoor shower. It leaks through the shower head. I tried buying and replacing the washers and that didn't help. I bought a replacement valve and replaced it and it didn't help. I bought the hot and cold seat tools to make sure those were tight and properly seated. That didn't help. What else could it be?

Note -- when I turn off the water in the basement and take the valve apart to inspect it then turn the water back on, there's no leaking. If I turn the water on and then off, then it'll start leaking again. Is the body of the valve the culprit?

Thanks for any ideas.

Note, when I say I turn on and off the water, I'm referring to this at the shower (after shutting it off in the basement).

[Mike45plus]

Mj,
Yes, if you live in a cold climate where your outdoor piping could be exposed to freezing temperatures, and you did not drain / winterize the piping and valve before the first cold snap, there is a good chance the valve body was distorted by the tremendous pressure created as water changes from a liquid to a solid. This distortion often causes misalignment of the valves interior mating surfaces.
I like to replace the factory mounted plug, located in the bottom center of the Symmons valve body, with a brass nipple & cap - this makes for a much easier disassembly during the valve body draining process, and, often I will adapt a pipe extension to that port, and connect a hose bib, or drain cock somewhere out of the way near the floor of the shower for the same purpose of draining the valve body.........

[mjdinsmore]

Follow-up: I realized if I turned the water on in the basement through the shut-off valves and then WAITED, it'd eventually leak - after water had time to fill the pipe to the showerhead.

Mike45Plus, thanks for the reply. I guess that must be it as I'm at a loss for anything else. I did drain it a little later than I should have, and perhaps it did get distorted, albeit unnoticeable to the eye. It does seem to be sitting squarely on the valve, as I can see consistent markings around the washer when I take it out.

*Sigh* Never easy!

[massplumber2008]

Hi Mjdinsmore

Did you replace the T-10 Cartridge spindle? If you bought and installed a new T-10 then you need to purchase a new hot and a new cold seat and install them. Here, over the years, Symmons industries has changed the specification to the T-10 and they absolutely require you to install new seats with the new T-10.

Let us know how all works out, OK?

Mark

[mjdinsmore]

I didn't replace the hot and cold seats, as I thought they'd be the same. The valve itself is only three years old.

[massplumber2008]

Replace the seats. As I said, Symmons now requires all installers to change the seats when changing out the T-10 cartridge. Be sure that you do NOT over tighten the seats... that can be a problem in itself. Install the seats to hand tight plus a little more to snug them and that is all! Hopefully, that will resolve this for you! If the seats do not resolve the issue, and you didn't mark them up any during the install, pull them and install them back into the boxes and return them as unused (as they really will be)!

Let us know how you make out, OK?

[mjdinsmore]

I just got the seats today and will let you know how it goes after I replace them (probably this weekend).

[massplumber2008]

Cool... appreciate the update, for sure!

[mjdinsmore]

Sorry for the delay, but I did get the new seats and tried them. Still no luck. What a bummer -- so far I've spent a bunch of money and have made no progress! $15 new seals, $40 new spindle, $26 seat kit, $21 seat removal tool -- $102 into the hole and now it looks like I need to replace the whole thing... :-(

If the plumber who initially installed this had actually returned my calls, I might have gone that route from the start. But after multiple calls and no reply, it seems like he's not interested in a small job like this.

[mjdinsmore]

SoSo I cut the copper pipes and sweated on a new Symmons valve to replace the leaking one and guess what?! That one leaks the same way! Could my water pressure be too high? I don't have problems with any other sinks or showers in my house though...

I guess the $90 on a new valve wasn't the right move...

[hkstroud]

! Could my water pressure be too high?

No.

so far I've spent a bunch of money and have made no progress! $15 new seals, $40 new spindle, $26 seat kit, $21 seat removal tool -- $102 into the hole and now it looks like I need to replace the whole thing...

A review of Symmons warranty would have told you that the valve was warranted for life.
Warranty Information

A review of the installation instructions would have provided information you needed to request replacement parts (free) including the seat removal tool.

http://www.symmons.com/~/media/Files...SysZV89ins.pdf

It is unlikely that a valve of the quality of a Symmons would leak due to defective parts (washers and seats) after only 3 years. But stuff happens.

It is illogical that a leak would continue after replacing the critical parts (seats and washers) unless you mucked something up in the process. Not saying you did, just that we all do occasionally. Also, it appears that it would be difficult to muck up replacing the seats and washers, after all it's a plumbing valve, it is not a Swiss watch.

Not only is it illogical that you would have a leak after replacing the seats and washers but it it is totally illogical to have the leak after replacing the entire valve.

Obviously, there must be something else going on. And no, it is not the water pressure. Your pipes and valves are built to withstand far greater pressure than you could ever produce in a domestic water system even if you were trying to cause a problem.

As to water pressure. You didn't say but I get the impression that one side (hot or cold) that leaks, not both. Perhaps I am wrong. Water pressure (static pressure) in a domestic water system is always equal, not only between the hot and cold sides but through out the system. So no, the problem is not water pressure.

Have you considered contacting Symmons for technical assistance?

If I were going to guess as to what the problem is, I would guess that you have some debris trapped in the system. If I were going to guess what the debris was, I would guess that it is solder. When soldering copper pipe if an excessive amount of solder is used or the joint is over heated, the hot, melted solder can run down inside the pipe. Hot solder will not stick to a cold pipe. It can then lay in the pipe, sometimes for years, until the water flow moves it to the next available valve. I have a hose bib that began leaking after about 10 years. I remove the stem and flushed it out. The hose bib was fine for a couple more years. I had to repeat the flushing. Apparently I didn't get all the solder out. It has been leak free for two or three years but I may have to repeat the process in another 10 years except I probably won't live that long. Clearing the pipe can be difficult if there is a vertical section of pipe near the valve. The flow can move the debris to the valve but it can then fall back down the pipe when the flow is stopped.

"Ifn't it wus me", I would remove the spindle, and because you have had so much difficulty with this valve, I would also remove the seats to provide a larger opening in the valve, and flush the piping well. I would turn off the hot at the water heater and flush the cold side, then turn the hot back on and flush both sides.

Good luck.

Just as an aside. I put a new water heater in for my neighbor over the weekend. I had some difficulty. She now reports that she hears a squealing when using the shower. Obviously I have some solder in the valve. I intend to go over and flush the shower valve as I have described, just as soon as I have another cup of coffee, or maybe two.

[hkstroud]

Hii, why don't you cal DMS Plumbers

Thanks JuliusCary. Only problem is, mjdinsmore probably lives in Maine. Do you think DMS would charge mileage?

[massplumber2008]

Excellent post, Harold. I can't think of anything to add!