[LilRams]

Long story short...
I am in a counseling program for probation and very very rarely drink... Last Wednesday I tried out a new restaurant with my family, and tried some of the foreign beer they had there... I had 2 beers Wednesday between 5 and 6pm, and had to give a urine sample on Friday at 6:30pm. If I am calculating correctly from the previously answered questions, I should be OK with a 48 hour window, but am still freaking... can someone confirm this for me?

[DrBill100]

Long story short...
I am in a counseling program for probation and very very rarely drink... Last Wednesday I tried out a new restaurant with my family, and tried some of the foreign beer they had there... I had 2 beers Wednesday between 5 and 6pm, and had to give a urine sample on Friday at 6:30pm. If I am calculating correctly from the previously answered questions, I should be ok with a 48 hour window, but am still freaking... can someone confirm this for me?

EtG clearance time for two beers (5%, 12 oz) should be less than 36 hours.

[LilRams]

EtG clearance time for two beers (5%, 12 oz) should be less than 36 hours.

I did indeed pass... Thanks again for all your research Dr. Bill!

[DrBill100]

Thanks for reporting your results. If possible could you post your age, gender, height and weight.

[LilRams]

Thanks for reporting your results. If possible could you post your age, gender, height and weight.

I am 30 years old, am 5'9" and weigh approx 180.

Coincidently, I also drank this weekend and have a test on Tuesday (which is what reminded me to reply with my results). I think I am cutting it close, but here are the stats:

Began drinking @ noon on Saturday, and concluded @ about 8:00 pm. I would estimate about a drink per hour, one drink being a solo cup filled with fruit, and then white wine being poured on top of it... So I would say 8-10 oz. of wine per drink, but to be safe, let's say 12 oz of wine.
I also had 2 diet sodas between beverages, and had a big meal (burger, kielbasa, salad, grilled vegetables) during the afternoon. Later on that night, I had a glass of red wine with dinner (that last drink being between 8 and 8:30, so let's say 9pm).

So a total of 8 drinks (I think it was less as I wasn't drunk, but I'd rather overestimate)
Over the course of 9 hours
Before bed that night, I had about 20 oz of water, and 2 excedrin to ward off evil spirits.
Time between last drink and testing = 68 hours
So, I would estimate BAC @ 0 by 3am Sunday the latest

I will be tested at about 5pm on Tuesday. I don't believe this will be an ETG (as it is an instant cup that reads immediately) , but to be safe I would like to calculate my elimination time. Can you provide me with some information on how to do this? When I do drink, I normally don't drink nearly the amount I consumed on Saturday, so I am unsure of how long to allow. This is the first time I have had anything to drink since my last entry (July 2nd) and am tested weekly, so there should be no other residual alcohol related factors.

I am also curious about the "water soluable" statements made in other posts. Does this mean that you can flush ETG out of your system, or simply that if you drink water before testing, that it will dilute the readable amount of ETG at the time of testing?
Any info you can provide?

[DrBill100]

There is no method for calculating elimination of EtG dose to time above about 6 drinks. My method derives from a database of published studies that focus on multiple factors, some dose measured by alcohol/body weight, some BAC only, a few by number of drinks.

There is one constant across the studies and that is a wide interindividual variation in amount of EtG detected following a measured dose of alcohol. Therefore my system is to compare maximum elimination times based on the variant factors. Not very precise but usually provides outer boundaries.

Due to this lack of precision and in accord with professional constraints I don't get involved in anterograde predictions, only retrograde where no one is harmed by error.

There is no way to time EtG production or elimination except in very broad time frames and for each additive drink the time line becomes more and more expansive and less and less precise. As example, acutely intoxicated individuals BAC >.20 can clear EtG in a range from <24 to >100 hours*. Combined a median of <78 hours is obtained but the standard deviation is so large as to render the figure useless. Certainly not the type of information that can be applied to individual circumstances with any sense of confidence.

*based on 500 ng cutoff

Albermann, et al (2012) Preliminary investigations on ethyl glucuronide and ethyl sulfate cutoffs for detecting alcohol consumption on the basis of an ingestion experiment and on data from withdrawal treatment. International Journal of Legal Medicine, 2012 (accepted for publication)

Helander A, (2009) Detection times for urinary ethyl glucuronide and ethyl sulfate in heavy drinkers during alcohol detoxification. Alcohol Alcohol. 2009 Jan-Feb;44(1):55-61

[LilRams]

It would seem also that the amount of time between drinks ingested also has an impact. If I understand correctly, EtG is created as it is metabolized, therefore, the more you drink in a short timeframe, the higher your EtG level would be for a longer period, due to the high levels being metabolized in the body at once. So, one who consumed 3 shots of liquor one after the other would have a higher level of EtG than one who had one shot every hour for three hours. Is this accurate? And if it is, would that not lend itself to the conclusion that if a drink is consumed closer to the end of metabolization of the previous drink, the level of EtG would be lower as well, due to the non cumulative creation of EtG in the liver. If EtG is only created as alcohol is metabolized, then unless drinks are consumed in an extremely proximity to one another, one would calculate from only the last drink... Is this incorrect? I really want to understand.

[LilRams]

It would seem also that the amount of time between drinks ingested also has an impact. If I understand correctly, EtG is created as it is metabolized, therefore, the more you drink in a short timeframe, the higher your EtG level would be for a longer period of time, due to the high levels being metabolized in the body at once. So, one who consumed 3 shots of liquor one after the other would have a higher level of EtG than one who had one shot every hour for three hours. Is this accurate? And if it is, would that not lend itself to the conclusion that if a drink is consumed closer to the end of metabolization of the previous drink, the level of EtG would be lower as well, due to the non cumulative creation of EtG in the liver. If EtG is only created as alcohol is metabolized, then unless drinks are consumed in an extremely close proximity to one another, one would calculate from only the last drink... Is this incorrect? I really want to understand.

I actually found the answers to these questions in previous posts, so thank you. I am curious as to why it is so difficult to measure after 6 drinks. It would seem that the same pattern for two drinks would apply for 6 or 10. Why is it so inconclusive after 6?

I do definitely want to add that I can in no way change the outcome at this point, and that my questions are for my own knowledge and future reference. And I do thank you for all your input!

[DrBill100]

I understand your thinking. That is a linear model that would allow simply multiplying drinks by time. That is indeed the model used for alcohol (EtOH) elimination, Widmark formula, etc. That model states that regardless of amount present the metabolic rate will remain constant, steady state.

EtG is subject to a different elimination model, enzyme kinetics, and this is dependent on quantity remaining in system. Briefly it means that the higher the level of EtG present, to a point, the faster it will be metabolized but the rate of metabolism slows as metabolism progresses and in proportion to the remaining EtG.

Now exactly where one system, linear in early stage, but not later, creates the need for at a two-compartment model for elimination.

Here is a brief description of zero v. first order kinetics.

At any rate you cannot predict EtG elimination by multiplying drinks by time even if we knew the quantity of EtG synthesized per drink... which varies by as much as 20X from one individual to another.

[LilRams]

I understand your thinking. That is a linear model that would allow simply multiplying drinks by time. That is indeed the model used for alcohol (EtOH) elimination, Widmark formula, etc. That model states that regardless of amount present the metabolic rate will remain constant, steady state.

EtG is subject to a different elimination model, enzyme kinetics, and this is dependent on quantity remaining in system. Briefly it means that the higher the level of EtG present, to a point, the faster it will be metabolized but the rate of metabolism slows as metabolism progresses and in proportion to the remaining EtG.

Now exactly where one system, linear in early stage, but not later, creates the need for at a two-compartment model for elimination.

Here is a brief description of zero v. first order kinetics.

At any rate you cannot predict EtG elimination by multiplying drinks by time even if we knew the quantity of EtG synthesized per drink....which varies by as much as 20X from one individual to another.

Thank you! That was very helpful! As I said before, Tomorrow's urinalysis is not an EtG, but I do get randomly tested for EtG. So I would like to be well informed about the test itself and the process by which it is administered and analyzed.

[LilRams]

..

[JudyKayTee]

..

Another person posting two different sets of "facts" on two different sites - realizing it and simply removing the first post when asked about it.

Talk about pet peeves - ?

[smoothy]

Another person posting two different sets of "facts" on two different sites - realizing it and simply removing the first post when asked about it.

Talk about pet peeves - ?

Never mind the fact that their doing such is a violation of site rules... editing and attempted deletions are NOT the same thing.

And why so many sites lock posts after only 15 minutes... to prevent that from happening.

Personally I'm hoping they get caught and thrown back in jail... drunks that refuse to deal with their addiction don't deserve to be driving or being allowed to game the system.

I'm a firm believe in they can call anyone on probation and give them an HOUR to show up at a test center... and be very random at times and days called... and MORE often on Saturday or Sunday AM.

[JudyKayTee]

Never mind the fact that their doing such is a violation of site rules......editing and attempted deletions are NOT the same thing.

And why so many sites lock posts after only 15 minutes....to prevent that from happening.

And why I am beginning to always quote - even you!

[smoothy]

And why I am beginning to always quote - even you!

Trust me... thats WHY it's a good idea to quote certain posts when answering them.

[JudyKayTee]

Trust me....thats WHY its a good idea to quote certain posts when answering them.

To keep you up to date - change question #2 - it's been removed.

Unforunately for "lilsomething," I quoted it.

Oh, and never mind is now one word. Like thank you.