[Kristi2pr]

My 3 yr old dachshund was just diagnoses with ivdd. He has 2 herniated disks but I can not afford surgery. Luckily there is still some disk matter still there between the vertebrae. He is on pain pills, steroids, and total crate rest. I told my vet that he is calm when by me. She said total crate rest unless potty. He is not behaving well in the crate and I'm afraid he will hurt himself so Heckenkemper lying by me peacefully on my bed. As long as I stay with him and he stays calm it is OK isn't it? He has finally started going tobthe bathroom outside again. But he has not had a bowel movement for the past day and half. Is this normal? If not what can I do? One more question is that I have been reading

[JudyKayTee]

You never posted the second question.

What does your Veterinarian suggest?

If she said total crate rest she meant it. How is he getting on and off the bed? Jumping is bad, lifting him might be worse.

Unfortunately - and this is harsh - medical bills are part of owning a dog. If you cannot afford the bills you may have to find him another good home. I know it's painful but how long can he live in pain, on pain pills and steroids?

If he needs surgery then someone has to step up and take care of that.

Is there any Pet Emergency Fund in your area?

[Kristi2pr]

I appreciate u responding. I accidentally pushed submit button when typing my last question. But I did finish it and resubmit. I have been reading about back braces. Now I know it won't help the disk disease but I was wondering that if it kept his spine straight there would b less chance of hurting the disk area while healing? Or would I just b wasting my money? As I said in my question my vet said total crate rest. But in the crate he is trying to move around. Trying to get out. And even trying to stand on back legs to get out. When he is out with me he just lays here and sleeps. There would be no way in hell that I would let my baby jump off the bed in this condition. When I take him out to go potty I pick him up exactly the way my vet showed me how. The surgery is $4000 a state away from where I live. What it would do is cut off the part of the disk that is herniated. The 2 discs that have the disc disease in now still has about 1/2 of the disc matter in them. The 6 weeks of pain pills, steroids, and total rest is to help heal him. I go back into her every 2 weeks. I am doing everything that I can possibly do to help my baby heal. That is why I feel beings he is calmer by being beside me he has a better chance of healing. Otherwise he can hurt himself worse and parili

[Kristi2pr]

Paralyze him.

[JudyKayTee]

I would do exactly what the Veterinarian recommended and nothing else. How does he get on and off the bed?

I'm sorry and I don't mean to be harsh but you are NOT doing everything you can to help your "baby" heal. If you were you would be following the Vet's advice - and that might include a second crate/kennel next to your bed.

I understand the medication and rest are to help him heal. If the Doctor believed a brace would be helpful she would prescribe one. Back braces are not new to her - in fact, many Vets actually fit them, custom fit them to the animal.

I had a Rott with the same problem. I know what it's like to crate a dog for an extended period. If you go to the Vet and ignore the advice you are putting the dog in danger AND wasting your money.

[Kristi2pr]

U are not quite understanding what I am saying. In the crate he is going to hurt himself. On my bed with me he lies here and sleeps. The only time he is getting on or off my bed is when I carry him, the way the vet showed me how, outside to go potty. I have gotten on this site to ask some questions about a back brace and if anyone knows of anything else I can do for my baby. NOT TO BE CRITICIZED BY U.

[Kristi2pr]

And by the way the crate is by my bed. When I am not here with him he is in the crate. I do not leave him alone here. And at night when I don't know what's going on he is in the crate.

[JudyKayTee]

And btw the crate is by my bed. When I am not here with him he is in the crate. I do not leave him alone here. And at night when I don't know what's going on he is in the crate.?

What? The crate is next to your bed. When you are not in your bedroom he is in the crate but you don't leave him alone?

At night when you don't know what's going on he is in the crate?

I'm not understanding what you're telling me.

[JudyKayTee]

U are not quite understanding what I am saying. In the crate he is going to hurt himself. On my bed with me he lies here and sleeps. The only time he is getting on or off my bed is when I carry him, the way the vet showed me how, outside to go potty. I have gotten on this site to ask some questions about a back brace and if anyone knows of anything else I can do for my baby. NOT TO BE CRITICIZED BY U.

You are not understanding what I'm telling U. First, please use English, not text speak. It's hard to take you seriously when you can't use words.

You aren't understanding what I'm telling you - the Vet said to keep him crated. You aren't doing that. Did the Vet say to carry him on and off the bed OR did the Vet say to crate him? I think it's the latter.

When you post on a public board you get public opinion. If you want people to only agree with you, ask your friends.

My guess is that eventually someone else is going to come along and tell you to follow the Vet's instructions. I'm not going to be alone in that.

You pick that dog up wrong and it's paralyzed, you have to live with that. I had a dog with back problems - a Rott. She woke up one morning paralyzed from just behind her front legs all the way down her body. I've posted about her in the past. "Something shifted" during the night was the best anyone could tell me. Don't take that chance - follow the Vet's instructions!

Please don't type in caps - it's the same as shouting. By the way, I love my dogs BUT we are talking about a dog, not your "baby." If you do have real live "babies" do you follow their Doctors' instructions or branch out on your own?

I'll repeat what I said in the beginning - medical bills are part of owning a pet. Is there an emergency fund in your City that would help you with the surgery?

[JudyKayTee]

We clearly are not understanding each other. What does this mean?

"The crate is next to your bed. When you are not in your bedroom he is in the crate but you don't leave him alone?

At night when you don't know what's going on he is in the crate?"

The text and cap "rules" are not mine - read the AMHD rules you agreed to when you signed up.

[LadySam]

I would advise that you follow your vets instructions also, you would not intend it but if you dozed off and he jumped off the bed he could be in for a world of damage.
I feel that you should get him through this healing period as best you can without incident and start saving for the surgery.
At 3 years old he still has a long life to live and his back will not replace the material that is now damaged it will only get gradually worse.
When my dog had his back surgery I had to be very careful with him and he had the hardware in place to keep his back stabilized.
He was crated for much longer than he and I liked but it was a necessary evil, I actually slept right by him on the floor at night to keep him calm.
I have never had any experience with the braces, I did Google them to see what they were all about and while I could see where they may provide SOME support, given how they were made and how a dogs body moves I really couldn't see where they would very beneficial in preventing an injury if the dog got a little too mobile.
Regarding his crate behavior and the curiosity about the braces I would say discuss both with your vet. He/she should have final say.
Just keep in mind that without the proper rest his back won't heal properly and in time with out surgery if your vet feels it is the best solution, you'll be looking at episodes like this throughout her life. It won't be much fun for either of you. And by the time you treat multiple episodes you will probably spend the price of the surgery.
You also said "a state away" are there no specialty hospitals closer to you?

[Kristi2pr]

I am with him on the bed at all times and he is laying beside me otherwise he is in the crate trying to get out. At night when I don't know what is going on he is in the crate. As I said I know my family. My animals are part of that family. I know everything about his likes, dislikes, what he wants, or doesn't want, what he does, and doesn't do because they are not just dogs. I got on this site because I wanted help in seeing if there was anything else out there that people have tried that worked for them.

[Kristi2pr]

LadySam thank you very much for your advice. I can handle constructive criticism put nicely so much better then being criticized nonstop. You understand exactly what I mean by how he is behaving in the crate. He is even getting on his hind legs and hopping trying to get out. I believe I have found a smaller crate for him though. While he is with me beside me on the bed he is totally calm and sleeping. I really haven't gotten a lot done around my house in the week that this has happened though! When I go to bed he does go back into the crate. I do understand that the vet knows what she is talking about and I should follow what she says to a T. I'm just so afraid of him hurting himself. He has been by my side from the moment I got him including sleeping with me. I'm so afraid that he will paralyze himself while trying to get out of cage. His vet first recommended the surgery then we did x-rays and that is when she say that he has IVDD. She said that it is very good news that there is still disk between those 2 vertebrae and surgery will only help by cutting off the disk that had herniated out. My problem is is that I am trying to help him get better from this time. And praying that it will be a long time until the next disk deteriorates. One surgery cost $4000.00 and it is in Manhattan Kansas. There are no vets in Nebraska that does this surgery. Every time a disk deteriorates will be possibly another $4000.00. He is my baby and it will tear my heart out but I won't be selfish and watch him suffer because I don't want to lose him. But I have to give him a fighting chance too.

[LadySam]

It's hard to convince a dog to follow doctors orders, they just don't understand it is for there own good.
Is it at night when he acts up in his crate or during the day?
I would definitely speak with his vet about this problem if the smaller crate doesn't work.
Depending on what meds he is on now, perhaps she could suggest something to keep him a little mellow.
I wish I had the perfect answer for you, unfortunately this is all I've got.
I would still squirrel away a little money each week on the chance that the surgery is his only option down the road.
On a side note, I can't speak for JudyKayTee, but I can say that she has the respect of many members on this site, including myself.

[Kristi2pr]

It is when he wakes up and during the day. When he's beside me he minds me very well. But in the crate he wants out so bad he doesn't mind me at all. Thank you for your advice. I will keep in mind what you say about JudyKayTee. Maybe it was just the way she stated things with me already being upset, I don't know. I can afford to have pets and take care of my pets very well. But when it comes to $4000 and how many times I might have to pay for the surgery is a different story, as it is for most of us. I don't like to be judged so harshly especially when not knowing all the facts.

[Kristi2pr]

We clearly are not understanding each other. What does this mean?

"The crate is next to your bed. When you are not in your bedroom he is in the crate but you don't leave him alone?

At night when you don't know what's going on he is in the crate?"

The text and cap "rules" are not mine - read the AMHD rules you agreed to when you signed up.

JudyKayTee. I do think that you are right as in we didn't understand each other. I have looked at your other advice that you give and I think its good. I just had a problem with how abrupt and to the point you were being. It is a delicate situation because I do love my animals so much like family and it hurt what you were telling me without all the facts. I used to be stationed in Ft Drum NY when I was in the army. One of the things I liked about most of the New Yorkers I met was that they were to the point people. I hope u (ooops you) read messages between LadySam and I and might understand the situation better. You had made a comment about if I want somebody to agree with me talk to my friends. Where I live, Nebraska, my town 5,000 people everybody tells me to put him to sleep and get another dog. That is the way it is here. I can afford to have pets and take very very good care of them. But trying to come up with $4000 for surgery, that I have to go to Kansas to, on "just a dog" is not anything I can do. The car I drive isn't even worth that! Plus my heat and air-conditioning went out in my house also. Ok enough with my feel sorry for me story. Its not the way I am or do things. Through all this typing I am doing the bottom line is that I am sorry for getting rude with you. I do know you were just trying to help me. It just came across wrong to me. When LadySam said the same thing you were it was more diplomatic and understanding. And I wasn't offended at all. Please accept my apologies and I hope that if I need advice again that you will be willing to give me yours!

[paleophlatus]

Kristi,
I understand your dilemma... told to keep your dog 'quiet' by putting him in a crate. But that is when he becomes agitated, and is anything but quiet. When he is out of the crate, he is calm. I very strongly suspect he: 1) has not been crate trained, and 2) is very 'attached' to you... not necessarily spoiled, just 'dependent'. You're dealing with a form of separation anxiety. It isn't that you are gone, just that he can't get as close to you as he wants, when he wants.
It also sounds like your town has mostly (only?) large animal vets... typical for a small town in Nebraska. The attitude of your friends is completely understandable... when you realize that farm folks view animals by the value they have, and take to maintain. A dead cow is worth nothing... a sick one that can walk into the slaughterhouse is worth much more, so "let's load her up and head for town". Hence the 'solution' offered is the most practical... but not desirable to you. I know about 'county seat' vet practices in Iowa... first hand. I call it 'economical medicine", and don't like it, but agree with it.
It also sounds like he is fairly mobile, except for the discomfort that comes with making some moves, or getting into some positions, like during a BM. Which brings the question of why the urgency for surgery? Many dogs live long lives with IVDD without surgery. Surgery is indicated to relieve incapacitating pain, or to hopefully correct a paralytic condition, either partially or completely paralytic.
You say the vet is happy that there is still about half of the disk material between the vertebrae. An IV disk is like a jelly-filled donut, securely and firmly attached to each adjacent vertebra. There is a gelatinous center to a disk, the outer area is cartilage and will not come off the bone when a disk ruptures.
Normally, the vet can make an educated evaluation of whether the disk has undergone a traumatic rupture into the spinal canal, or is simply bulging, like a bulge on a tire, putting pressure on the nerves that come off the spinal cord at that location.
The much more common bulging disk causes considerable pain, and a reluctance to, or weakness in, normal locomotion. Difficulties with steps is very suggestive of a bulging disk.
Normal disk material is not visible on an x-ray. When viewing a back, the 'empty' spaces between the vertebra are actually taken up with the disk and ligament material of the normal joint. If the x-ray is taken almost directly over the affected joint, it is possible to see a slight narrowing of the IV space, due to the loss of the gelatinous disk material, but no actual disk material is visible until it has calcified to some extent, as the result of the injury, or can be demonstrated by the use of a contrast medium during the spinal x-ray.
The medication and treatment given is intended to make the animal comfortable while the swelling associated with the injury abates and normal but modified activity can be resumed. Steroids reduce the swelling (and retard healing) and pain meds allow mild activity with reduced pain (hopefully) . Pain is mostly due to muscle spasms or cramping associated with the abnormal nervous stimulation. There is no benefit to removing ALL the discomfort the dog has because it will automatically return to it's normal, before injury, activity which has the potential to promote it's IVDD condition into a paralysis and definite need for surgery before the spinal cord turns to mush.
It has been my experience that most vets who can't do a surgery try to explain the procedure to the client as simply as possible, but it winds up completely incomprehensible to someone who does know what is done. I presume you had no MRI done, or even a CAT scan done.
Surgery for a bulging disk is NOT to remove the disk. Removing all the disk material from between the vertebra will shorten the spine a bit, but more importantly, will allow/necessitate bone on bone contact. This is the recipe for arthritis, and spinal arthritis is about as incapacitating as IVDD.
My suggestion to you is to call the vet school at KSU (or CSU at Greeley... it's a good school, too. Or ISU at Ames.. I KNOW it's a good school!) and ask for a small animal vet location in an area closer to you, unless any school is within driving distance. Then, go to either place for a second opinion, not a surgery consultation. All the schools will undoubtedly suggest something more revealing than a normal x-ray, but you can do what is economical feasible for you, and they will have to do like we used to do... make educated 'guesses' based on experience, before we had the 'magic eyes' like an MRI. It is surprising what you can find out when there is no 'guarantee' seeming to float on what is said.
If I have misunderstood your position and desires, let me know and we can go from there.

In the meantime, IF he is as active and mobile as you indicate, I would expect, when you are home, and can keep the dog quiet outside his kennel, he should be able to recuperate more comfortably. But when possible, try to get him to accept being in the kennel at least while you are there. Feed him in it, and leave the food in it and door open when he is out of it. Walking around with a little discomfort won't hurt him. Running, slippery floors, stairs, and footstools are dangerous right now. If you are uncomfortable doing this without speaking with your vet, by all means ask her about... don't just announce that you are going to. But whatever, consider getting that second opinion, for both of your sakes.

I would also be interested in what he did immediately before hurting his back, if you know... like jump off something?

Also, people and dogs walk enough differently that I have strong reservations about any sort of brace working on a dog. There are 'doggy wheelchairs' for those completely paralyzed, but those aren't a brace but maybe some people think they are.

And, THANK YOU for your service. (I don't care if it is shouting... some things are worth it)
Ft Drum... wasn't/isn't that some special duty there... like Intelligence, or something?

[Kristi2pr]

Wow Paleophlatus, you really know your stuff!! Yes my dog and are very dependent on each other!! When we sit anywhere he is on my lap or right beside my legs. When I am doing things around the house he is right at my feet. And when we go to bed he is under the covers by my tummy or behind my knees, my sons lab is at the end of the bed or under it and my beagle-boston terrier is under the comforter but not the sheet and my cat finds a place where he can!! I know its terrible but that is why I was trying to explain that they are my babies not just dogs. And DJ my dachshund is the biggest of my babies. I saw him born and then took him inat 5 months old because the gal was going to put him to sleep because she was getting new carpets!! You are also right that he has never been in a crate or cage. I am actually having to use an old portable crib from when my son was a baby. Yes the vet did say it was OK. I have it divided in half. To go into detail about what happened to him. I'm not sure what he jumped off. I knew that their backs was as fragile as a baby's back but did not realize that they were not supposed to jump off furniture. He came out that day and was just acting weird, not himself. We were at my moms trying to get her carpets tacked back down and their place back in order from getting treated for termites. The next day he was acting a little worse and a friend suggested that he might have gotten into poison. The vets there couldn't even see him until late that afternoon so we all (dogs and I) loaded up and drove 2 hrs home. Luckily the vet saw how he was walking and said he tweaked his back. She gave me pain pills for him and said bed rest 3-5 days. My back and shoulder was hurting too so we both took her advice and did bed rest over the weekend. By Monday he was a lot worse. When he walked it was like he was drunk with his back legs. And he was starting to drag them sometimes. So we went back to the vet and she said that he would need surgery and the closest place is in Kansas. I told her there was no way that I would be able to afford that. She said she was concerned about IVDD because he was getting worse instead of it just happening. So they took x-rays and it showed that 2 discs right after the ribcage the spacing was about 1/2 the size of the other ones. She said that the bad news is that he has IVDD but the good news was that there was still disc material there. Surgery would be the ideal thing but beings I can't afford that it was going to be pain pills, steroids, anti-inflammitory shot and total crate rest. No bed just crate and outside to potty for 6 weeks. She will do check-up every 2 to see how he's healing. If he ends up not being able to use his back legs then we had to get him into surgery within 24 hrs for 90% chance of recovery. I had been reading up on all this stuff over the weekend too so I knew a little bit about it. So far things are working OK still except he is having problem with bowel movement? Yesterday he finally went twice after nothing for 2 days. I was going to call vet then he had first one. Today he hasn't had one and his poor tummy is hard. I am going to call vet tomorrow. He is behaving in the crib better now. He's not jumping up and down trying to get out any more, thank god. But when I am in the bedroom I let him out to lay beside me for a couple hours. Today was first day that he was able to walk without looking drunk and he didn't drag his legs at all. So now after what vet said and you said I think things are improving a bit. I know it is meds though and I'm sticking to the script. He thinks he's better so he is already getting tired of bed rest and we are only a week into it!! He also has caught on about the pain medicine in food. So his face and how he reacts when he tastes that 1/4 tablet is hilarious. He spits it out and just glares at me so I am trying new things. All in all I think things have calmed down and after today I am not as scared of him being paralyzed. I know it can still happen but I do think he's on the mend. I really appreciate you responding to my letter. As I had stated it the other ones. I was looking to see if anybody had any more information or things that had worked for their dog that I could do. I just want my baby to get better. I know we do have a long road ahead of us with the IVDD. But I am praying that we get through this one and it will be a long time before we have to deal with it again because of his age and also the drastic changes we will be doing after this!! Does this all sound about right and what we should be doing? Is there anything else you can think of? Again thank you so much for your reply. You gave me a little bit of faith in people again! Lol thank you for your support to our country and troops also!! I was over in the first Gulf War right out of high school. I drove a Semi and was the beginning of the ammo run. Then was stationed at Ft Drum. It was an Air Bourne base but I was a truck driver in the Engineer Unit there. Thank you again for taking the time to write me and let me know exactly what I'm dealing with and understanding about that attachment to my dogs!!