Check out some similar questions!

bergs4 · May 29, 2012, 04:23 PM

I just had the electrician by today to give an estimate for a service panel upgrade from our 100a fuse service panel to a 200a service panel. I felt he was competent and knew what he was talking about. He did raise a concern that I would like to get advice on. He mentioned that inspectors have failed service panel upgrades in my city when the AFCI's are tripped by the older wiring in the house. When this happens, he says, the inspectors have required that the whole house be rewired. I don't think he was telling me this so that I go for rewiring the house, I think he was telling me this so that I was a aware of this potentially huge issues. I'm wondering if the inspectors are interpreting the code incorrectly because it seems ridiculous to me that, in effect, they're discouraging people from upgrading their service panel. Is there any section in the NEC that I can take to the building department? Thanks in advance for the help.

hfcarson · May 30, 2012, 08:23 AM

Berqs4,
The answer to this question depends on what state you are located in...
The NEC requirements apply to "all new" buildings and in some states also
Applies to additions and upgrades...
In New Jersey the Rehab Subcode allows you to install a new panel in an "existing" dwelling
Without upgrade to the latest code.
Although, If you do install a "new" branch circuit and this circuit is required to be AFCI by the latest code then you must also provide AFCI protection.
Your local electrical inspector should be contacted for this question. Ask him what code requires something. (especially if you disagree)
Let us know what you find out.

bergs4 · May 30, 2012, 09:29 AM

Thanks for the information. I will let you know what I find out. If it makes any difference, when the panel is upgraded, all circuits will be existing.

homemedic · May 30, 2012, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by bergs4

I just had the electrician by today to give an estimate for a service panel upgrade from our 100a fuse service panel to a 200a service panel. I felt he was competent and knew what he was talking about. He did raise a concern that I would like to get advice on. He mentioned that inspectors have failed service panel upgrades in my city when the AFCI's are tripped by the older wiring in the house. When this happens, he says, the inspectors have required that the whole house be rewired. I don't think he was telling me this so that I go for rewiring the house, I think he was telling me this so that I was a aware of this potentially huge issues. I'm wondering if the inspectors are interpreting the code incorrectly because it seems ridiculous to me that, in effect, they're discouraging people from upgrading their service panel. Is there any section in the NEC that I can take to the building department? Thanks in advance for the help.

You need to find out what other requirements are required when updating your electrical service from your city code inforcement office.

stanfortyman · May 30, 2012, 11:27 AM

AFCI's are generally not required when a service upgrade is done. In fact I have not heard of one area that does requires them.

For any inspector to fail such a thing better have documentation to support him. He can't just ask for these things, and he damn well cannot demand a house be re-wired just because a service was changed.

bergs4 · Jun 7, 2012, 03:18 PM

Well, I finally got around to going to the electrical inspector to ask him about this. His response when I asked about AFCI requirements was that they are required and if they pop then that means there is a fire hazard somewhere which means that circuit has to be "fixed". He seems to be of the impression that the AFCI's shouldn't be tripping just because the wires are old. Electricians who I have gotten estimates from think differently. Do the inspector's have blanket ability to say the AFCI's show a fire hazard is presently therefore it must be fixed in order for the inspection to pass? What do I need to ask him for in terms of documentation to prove his contentions?

stanfortyman · Jun 7, 2012, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by bergs4

Well, I finally got around to going to the electrical inspector to ask him about this. His response when I asked about AFCI requirements was that they are required and if they pop then that means there is a fire hazard somewhere which means that circuit has to be "fixed". He seems to be of the impression that the AFCI's shouldn't be tripping just because the wires are old. Electricians who I have gotten estimates from think differently. Do the inspector's have blanket ability to say the AFCI's show a fire hazard is presently therefore it must be fixed in order for the inspection to pass? What do I need to ask him for in terms of documentation to prove his contentions?

What utter B-S!

If there was a fire hazard then why did it not cause a fire with the old panel?

The code calls for AFCI's for new branch circuits. Simply changing the panel does not make the branch circuits new again.

tkrussell · Jun 8, 2012, 02:49 AM

And the reason AFCI was added was to protect from fires caused by lamp and appliance cords plugged into receptacles. Especially those hidden behind furniture, getting old and brittle and cracking insulation.

AFCI breakers were not intended to protect the building wiring. You can ask the inspector what about the other areas that do not require AFCI breakers?

Some wiring in older homes use shared neutrals, and do not allow for AFCI breakers.

While the panel is new, the home was wired under a previous code, and is not required to be updated to meet a new code.

If you can afford, and the home wiring can accept the AFCI breakers, I suggest to do it, but because you chose.

However, you should not need these by Code. You may want to appeal to the State Electrical Inspector, and ask to reverse the local inspectors decision. Not sure how far you want to take this issue.

hfcarson · Jun 8, 2012, 05:21 AM

Bergs4:
Please.. what state are you in?
In New Jersey we have rehab code, in many other
States we the International Existing Building Code...
Most states have a Uniform Construction Code or Administrative
Code that details the requirements for new, existing, renovation, addition... etc.

The Inspector should be able to quote the applicable code section to you...
If he does not or will not you can go to the Building official (He's in charge)
Or you can allow him to fail your project in which case he will be forced to identify
What code you have not complied with... (talk about jeopardy!)

Tell me where you are and I'll see what I can find.

tkrussell · Jun 8, 2012, 06:01 AM

Here are similar discussions with similar inconclusions, other than checking with the highest level of jurisdiction in that area.

Service Upgrade Requires New AFCI Breakers

Service change panel relocation ,.AFCI's? - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

Would we need to change to AFCI Breakers with upgrading Load Center.. - Self Help Forums

My opinion is AFCI breakers should not be required. allthou, a wise choice if possible.

bergs4 · Jun 8, 2012, 12:29 PM

All,

Thanks for the comments. I am in California. I guess I am of the opinion too that if there were a "fire hazard" a fire would already have occurred. I would gander, however, that the inspector would reply it just hasn't occurred yet. I too would like to use AFCI's, but not if I have to rewire the house right now in order to do so. I was also wondering if there is any way to test before the panel is upgraded to see if an AFCI would pop. Last, I have no problem going to the state inspector -- I don't like when people are on power trips just for the sake of being on power trips.

hfcarson · Jun 8, 2012, 12:46 PM

bergs4:
Okay... Part 10 California Existing Building Code,
2010 California Residential Code, Title 24, Part 2.5
Appendix J - Existing Buildings and Structures:
Section AJ301.4 Electrical Repairs:
"Electrical wiring and equipment undergoing repair with like material shall be permitted."

Now, I have not searched the entire Administrative Code but if you would like turn up the heat on your inspector to produce the code section he is standing on... quote the above!
Good luck

hfcarson · Jun 8, 2012, 12:55 PM

All, also a quick note on AFCI breakers and outlets;
There is a condition where a low level arc over a long period from a conductor to a wood framing member can cause the framing member to become pyrophoric...
It would be interesting to purchase a single AFCI just to see if it had any problem with older wiring.
Has anybody done this?

bergs4 · Jun 8, 2012, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by hfcarson

bergs4:
Okay...Part 10 California Existing Building Code,
2010 California Residential Code, Title 24, Part 2.5
Appendix J - Existing Buildings and Structures:
Section AJ301.4 Electrical Repairs:
"Electrical wiring and equipment undergoing repair with like material shall be permitted."

Now, I have not searched the entire Administrative Code but if you would like turn up the heat on your inspector to produce the code section he is standing on....quote the above!
Good luck

Awesome. Thank you!

Stratmando · Jun 8, 2012, 01:44 PM

They actually have AFCI Breakers for MultiCircuits:
Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (Combination Type AFCI)

The ARC Fault also acts like a GFI, where it will trip if either conductor has exceeded a level of resistance to ground, Unless the old insulation Leaks, it shouldn't be a factor.

Problem with installing GFI's or AFCI's in Older Homes, is a neutral or hot can be on more than 1 circuit, or a different circuit, like say someone had a 3 way with travellers going to upstairs, hot would be from downstairs and a neutral from an upstairs circuit, seen it happen.

I don't think their would be a problem with older wiring as much as older Connections/Recepticles/Switches.

The other thing I mentioned(1 or 2 circuits on 2 breakers). It is usually found when breakers are turned off and on one by one, and a circuit never goes out, then you turn off all breakers off, and if circuit is now off, turn on one by one until that circuit goes on, Identify that Breaker and turn back OFF, then continue turning breakers on until it goes on again, With Breakers Identified, you have 2 options:
Finde the Middle of the circuit and separate, or remove 1 from breaker and cap off, this way, if Number 12 wiring, it will now be protected by a 20 amp breaker, not 2 20 amp breakers (40 Amps), if this was going to be ARC Fault, one neutral would need to be capped as well.

Sounds more like from your Electrician, than your Inspector?

tkrussell · Jun 9, 2012, 03:19 AM

I knee I should have checked before giving my answer that these did not exist.

Originally Posted by Stratmando

They actually have AFCI Breakers for MultiCircuits:
Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (Combination Type AFCI)

I don't do much resi now, and need to check everything first.
A two pole AFCI breaker must be pricey.

And well done Carson.

bergs4 · Jun 9, 2012, 02:39 PM

Wow, that tool is pretty cool. Will it work on a fuse panel, though? Maybe the electrician would split the $350 cost with me.

Stratmando · Jun 9, 2012, 06:22 PM

I actually wanted to show the multicircuit AFCI.
I bet you can find it cheaper. Don't think you need it.

bergs4 · Jun 10, 2012, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Stratmando

I actually wanted to show the multicircuit AFCI.
I bet you can find it cheaper. Don't think you need it.

I totally missed that part. That would be ideal. So, basically that means, if I use that, then I am good even if I have a shared neutral? Which, based on my limited understanding of AFCI's means that if they still were popping, I either have arcing somewhere or an issue with one of the appliances plugged into them? This has been extremely helpful/educational.