[paraclete]

I cannot see what the great difficulty is with this Greek debt thing, everyone is bending over and being royally screwed to help the Greeks out and they are complaining and putting the rest of us at risk. I suggest they let this tinpot little country sink into the Aegean and let the rest of us go back to worrying about our own problems
Greek vote plan puts bailout efforts at risk
Puts into a different perspective that old saying "

beware a greek bearing gifts

[tomder55]

Perhaps the new standard should be "beware of Greeks returning gifts" .
More that one site I've read suggests the EU cut the Greeks lose. I think they fear a domino effect. What happens when Italy goes down ?

[paraclete]

Good question Tom what does happen when Italy goes down? As far as I can see a lot of old debt gets retired. Italy doesn't possess the same economic problems Greece does apparently but it is a much larger problem.

however the problem right now is Greece, financially it is being wiped off the map and like a bankrupt corporation it is ripe for a takeover, the lenders aren't going to write down the value of the debt without something in return and it is called collateral

[talaniman]

They wouldn't need a bailout if they raised taxes on the wealthy and created oh, maybe a few million jobs.

I didn't know they had conservative republicans in the EU! Cuts for the working (?), while rich bankers, continue to flourish, from a crisis they created. Of course, no one is proposing jobs, just cuts.

[paraclete]

They wouldn't need a bailout if they raised taxes on the wealthy and created oh, maybe a few million jobs.

Tal who are you talking about the Greeks or good ole USA. The problem the Greeks have is not raising taxes but collecting them. They are a nation of cheats and tax evaders, they were only allowed in the EU because they faked the numbers. This is what happens when you pay yourself too much and retire early.

I didn't know they had conservative republicans in the EU! Cuts for the working (?), while rich bankers, continue to flourish, from a crisis they created. Of course, no one is proposing jobs, just cuts.

The EU is very conservative, that is, not much changes, but they do have a tradition of looking after their people. Those rich bankers you are talking about are taking big losses on Greek debt, 50%+. Before you critise them perhaps you would apply the same standard to your own rich bankers. I don't see anyone where you live raising taxes or dealing with cheating bankers. What jobs do you suggest? Restoring ancient monuments? Distilling more Ouzo? They already have public servants sitting on their blessed assurance doing nothing, perhaps they could come to the USA and replace those troublesome illegals. No, job creation has been part of the problem

The problem in Europe is just the same as it is anywhereelse, overpopulation. Too many people looking for work, too many migrants. They have taken on basket case economies and they are reaping the rewards of doing so.

[talaniman]

I do apply the same standards to us as them. To Italy, and Spain as well. And don't worry, they have the same problem, and the same solutions, get the monied interest out of government, let the workers work, and restructure their banks.

If over population was the problem, (can't believe you said that, over population? REALLY?? ) start a WAR, but that's not the issue. FRAUD is. Follow the money, the working class, and migrants are a convenient scapegoat, but a distraction from the real issues.

A 20% unemployment would send any economy into the crapper. And has.

[paraclete]

Yes Tal overpopulation. 7 billion and counting and they have to go somewhere so where do they go, someplace that looks better than where they are.

So in the US you have 14 million unemployed and how many illegals, about the same number wasn't it? In the EU they have millions of migrant workers, and unemployment in many parts. If these migrant workers went home there would be massive unemployment and why? Overpopulation?

Greece has high unemployment and early retirement. I would say over population, too many people and too little industry, but where is all this industry? In China, an other case of overpopulation.

So Tal, I am willing to see the problem behind the issues

[tomder55]

I love it!! Now the argument being forwarded is that the Europeans are undertaxed!!

They are the perfect example of a citizenry that has become dependent on the nanny state and the socialist's failed experiment .

[paraclete]

Well Tom it is true that the Europeans are undertaxed at least among the PIGS where tax evasion is a national pastime. You could say this is a consequence of the socialist system, or you could say it is a consequence of poor government and liberal thought. But wait a minute, it isn't the liberals who want lower taxes where you live is it?

Way I see it, Tom, is you can have realistic rates of tax and little evasion, such as in my own fair land, or you can have high taxes and much evasion as in PIGS and, well, you know your own circumstance. But what you do need is a government that will only spend what it receives and doesn't borrow massively for what it cannot afford. Now wouldn't we all like that?

[talaniman]

Well geez, that's what big business says, we should have our taxes here lowered to complete with the rest of the world so they can stop sending jobs overseas. My suggestion of raising taxes was for the GREEK elite, the same as for the American elites, and corporations. I mean those golden parachutes, bonuses, and high salaries should be circulating in the economy, not sitting in a fat cat mattress, or buying politicians to keep the game rigged to extract money from the rest of the worlds populations.

This is the new world order that the first Bush promised us, where the banks, and corporations make the laws of the land, that rule the 99 percent of the rest of the whole world. Sure the greeks are a wacky bunch, but making them a dependent in the European nanny state is hardly a solution for them, us, or anyone.

First they came for our wages, then they took our jobs, and pensions, and now they want our futures (SS, and Medicare in America), so who is left holding the bag? I find it suspect when banks and corporations have leverage over government. How the hell do you have a free market capitalistic system, when people are slaves?

When the money that's supposed to circulate, but gets diverted to another destination, that's robbery, worse than what the Greeks can do. Before we blame the greeks, lets get glass steagal back for a the banks, WORLD WIDE.

Can't wait to see what Australia will say when the cost of doing business gets put on the backs of its citizens because prices and interest rates have gone through the roof. Then you can migrate to CHINA. Because it will look better than where you are at.

But failing to see the logic of a piddly Mediterranean country tanking a word economy is negligent since they were doing fine until this globaliztion thing spread. Sorry world, American banks are screwing you all, big time.

[paraclete]

Well Tal I see you paraphrased a well know axiom, and so will I, first they came for the Jews but I wasn't a Jew, next they came fror the communists but I wasn't a communist, then they will come for the capitalists but I'm not a capitalist, but what will I do when they come for me.

Don't defend the freedoms that do no one any good

As far as Australia is concerned we reduced interest rates last Tuesday and Europe followed suit. You can't reduce interest rates to stimulate your economy because you foolishly have zero interest rates. I've been to China, Tal, nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there. I have the same opinion of the US, Tal. Tal there are several ways to regulate an economy, Taxes, interest rates, spending. credit, You can't do any of them to help yourselves, because like the Greeks you have been helping yourselves for years. You think the Greeks were doing fine, they were riping everyonelse off just like your banks. They are only getting what they deserve. They were called to the G20 and were told this is how it is, get over it. Notice that plans suddenly changed. Local politics took a back seat and some reality was injected into the situation.

[tomder55]

Tal-Almighty decides what is fair salary and how much money we should keep.

What is bringing down the Greeks is silly entitlements . What will bring down the US is same.

Everywhere is freaks and hairies
Dykes and fairies, tell me where is sanity
Tax the rich, feed the poor
Till there are no rich no more

I'd love to change the world
But I don't know what to do
So I'll leave it up to you

Tax the rich, feed the poor
Till there are no rich no more

And then what ?

[paraclete]

Rubbish, Tom, and you know it. We have good social welfare programs in this country Tom and we are not broke. Our rich still get richer, tax doesn't stop them, because they have opportunity that the ordinary person doesn't. It is pure falacy to say taxes hurt the rich. The people they hurt are the poor.

[tomder55]

Yeah things are going good because your country has the good sense to export it's resources.

I doubt if your rich are taxed any more than ours ;and a quick perusal of the web has the same garbage coming from your side of the world " the rich don't pay enough for our entitlements " . Is that going to be your solution when your economy goes south ? Grab more of other people's money .

[paraclete]

yeah things are going good because your country has the good sense to export it's resources.

I doubt if your rich are taxed any more than ours ;and a quick perusal of the web has the same garbage coming from your side of the world " the rich don't pay enough for our entitlements " . Is that going to be your solution when your economy goes south ? Grab more of other people's money .

But Tom that's how the system works, OPM, you don't see the rich using their own, that's why they are rich. Our economy isn't going south, Tom, it has already been there. We understand where south is. We don't speak about taxing the rich Tom, we speak about taxing the corporations. You see we recognise that all that capital isn't home grown, its OPM

[talaniman]

We are not broke Clete, they just want you to think we are to cut what we have worked for. That's right, WORKED for. They don't just make money out of thin air you know, we can't crap a contract out of the blue. 2 percent of our population has deemed it necessary to get their mitts one OPM, MINE!!

As of now, half the government here, yes GOVERNMENT is doing the bidding of rich cats who have STOLEN the money. That's as simple as it gets, and no one is in jail. Tom likes to excuse this behavior, for reasons I can only guess.

But don't worry Clete, we will be back on track, as soon as the posse finds their horses. They have already started lawsuits against the banks for mortgage fraud, and no telling who's next. If we can just get those republican conservatives away from the hen house, but they are all scared of one guy, GROVER NORQUIST.

I am telling you, watch those conservatives, they are a stubborn lot. And watch who you export too. Those Greeks were just fine and happy until those rich conservative Europeans, and tried to join their club.

[tomder55]

Lol tal sharpening the guillotine .

[paraclete]

Just relax, Tom for the record we are taxed more than you because we don't have all those cheat deductions, basically all our tax payers pay tax, not just file returns. You may have noticed that the little red fox has plans for us to pay more tax. We should change the name of the Labor Party to the pay more tax party, that is the PMT Party

Here's an example of how well your tax system works for the rich
http://www.smh.com.au/business/world...104-1myie.html

[tomder55]

Again ;(why do I feel like I'm talking to a wall)... if you ask me if there should be tax reform ;I say yes. If you say 'tax the rich' for the crime of being successful that's where I draw the line. A flat or tiered flat tax with no deductions is fine with me... or even better... NO income tax. Fund the necessary roles of government with sales tax,excise taxes and user fees .

[talaniman]

How about leaving the taxes alone, doing away with corporate welfare, and seeing what happens. Maybe then we don't have as big a deficit, seeing the WARS are about over, and can focus on something other than protecting some fat cat.

I feel like I am talking to a wall to Tom, because I am opposed to flat taxes which screw me, and favor a guy who already has enough cash, but wants to suck what's in my pocket out.

A healthy economy doesn't need a tourniquet to stop the bleeding, but it's a crime in my eyes to cut him open, and bleed him dry, like a vampire.

That's what corporations, and banks are doing. If they cannot control themselves, or restore circulation, then they need a stake through the heart.