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corrigan · Oct 21, 2011, 01:37 PM

Okay, here's the back-story. I started dating a girl, and on the second date I told her I unequivocally don't want children. And by unequivocally I mean I didn't have any children and I had a vasectomy years before I even met her. None of this was ambiguous, I actually said the words " I had a vasectomy and I don't want, nor will I ever want, to have kids." Fast-forward 4 years and she breaks up with me because she "wants kids".

Had the situation been reversed, and on the second date she told me that she absolutely wanted kids, and I kept dating her for 4 years, after which I tell her I changed my mind and didn't want children, then I would have been the biggest jerk in the world. Nobody I've told this story to seems to think that she is the biggest jerk in the world.

I think a lot of it is that society seems to think it's "normal" to want children and "abnormal" to not want children. So a 4 year deception to an abnormal desire is not as bad as a 4 year deception to a normal desire. If there is no way around that, if that is just how the playing field is slanted, then why shouldn't I just tell anyone in the future that I date that I do want kids, and then just maintain the lie as long as I can? By that I mean that if my situation is such that I can only be a hammer or a nail, why not be a hammer? I guess what I'm really asking for is a way to make it all sit right in my head.

Wondergirl · Oct 21, 2011, 01:51 PM

Did she ever tell you whether she wanted kids? Maybe in the beginning, she too didn't want them, but as her biological clock ticked she started hearing a baby's cry in her future. Lots of females don't want kids, but parents and grandparents tend to lean on them in an attempt to change their minds.

I'm sorry if the two of you "wasted" each other's time for four years, but I don't see a double standard in any of this.

corrigan · Oct 21, 2011, 02:38 PM

Hi wondergirl,
Thanks for a quick response. If she doesn't say anything, wouldn't that be agreement by silence? And if it isn't, wouldn't that be lying by silence? I don't see how not responding to something of that magnitude could be anything else. If you do, could you please tell me what, because I'm still sorting everything out in my head.

The double standard is that if the whole thing goes one way it's a biological clock thing, and if it goes the other way, it's a selfish man (or woman). The second question was if there is no double standard, then why not lie to a girl and tell her I do want kids? At least it would put me in a position of power.

Thanks. :)

Cat1864 · Oct 21, 2011, 02:44 PM

I, too, don't see a double standard.

How many changes has she gone through during these four years? It is not uncommon for a woman in school or just starting her career to not want to have children. They look at it as either you are a mother or successful in your career. As time passes and they become settled and their needs change. They see friends and relatives have children and find they want to feel that bond.

It doesn't sound like she tried to change your mind but accepted your decision to never be a father even through adoption or other means. When she realized her needs had changed, she moved on. Would you have preferred for her to fight and argue with you to change your stance on children? Would you have wanted her to stay with you and deny her maternal needs to fill yours?

No time with another person is 'wasted'. You have four years of memories and experiences together. I am sure during that time you learned more about communicating with another person and about yourself. How is that 'wasted' time?

Wondergirl · Oct 21, 2011, 02:45 PM

If she never told you voluntarily one way or the other about how she felt, and if you never asked her, I don't see how she lied. If it was that big of a deal to you, why didn't you ask her what she wanted--kids or no kids? I can't believe this didn't get resolved between you during four years' time.

I suggest you just continue to be your honest self, and stop overthinking this.

corrigan · Oct 21, 2011, 03:11 PM

Thanks to both of you. The idea of never having a child is something that I came to terms with a long time ago, I guess I always just looked at is as a static position. So it seems the consensus is that she probably wasn't lying so much as changing her position on the matter. It just sucks from where I'm standing.

Cat: Honestly, I wanted her to not change. I know how that seems, but I didn't change and I didn't lie, and it just makes me feel -- cheated.

Wondergirl: I had thought it was resolved, I hit me from out of nowhere. It makes me think she had other reasons and the whole children thing was just convenient. And overthinking is on of my vices, I don't know how to not.

Now looking forward, how would I know if she does change her mind? It's not a subject that should be brought up incessantly.

Sorry, misuse of a pronoun. One the last line by "she" I meant whoever I'm dating, not my-ex.

Cat1864 · Oct 21, 2011, 03:37 PM

Be open with the women you are dating when you feel it is the right time in the relationship. Ask them what their thoughts on having children are. If you are both on the same page, ask them to be honest if their feelings change.

I usually don't think much of dating sites and such, but they be a way for you to meet women who for whatever reason definitely do not want children. Some may be looking for a man who doesn't want children because they themselves can't have children.

corrigan · Oct 24, 2011, 10:21 AM

Would you have wanted her to stay with you and deny her maternal needs to fill yours?

Honestly, I think maybe I would. I know it sounds mean, but that's exactly what she did to me. She got what she wanted and I'm the one resenting her. I don't know how to get the thought out of my head that on the next girl, I'll get what I want and have her resent me. Is doing something like that intentionally worse than doing it accidentally? If so, why? The outcome is the same. I'd rather be the cause of something like that than the target. How do I not become that person?

Cat1864 · Oct 24, 2011, 12:29 PM

You are looking for absolutes and, when human biology and drives are involved, there aren't any.

The best anyone can do is keep the lines of communication open. Be aware of each other's needs and desires. Try to be understanding of each other's beliefs and personal decisions. Don't assume that because a woman doesn't say she wants children that she does or doesn't. Talk to her. If the relationship is to work and last, both of you have to be willing to communicate and compromise.

You said that she got what she wanted. What did she get other than four years with you? Is there more to why you think she left than wanting a child?

Have you ever given any thought to what you would do if it turned out your vasectomy was one that reversed itself? I ask because though vasectomies have gotten better in the past 30 years since my husband had one (before I met him) they still have a failure rate.

corrigan · Oct 24, 2011, 10:25 PM

What did she get other than four years with you?

By leaving me, she was free to find a man that would give her a child, and thereby eventually a child.

Is there more to why you think she left than wanting a child?

I think she stopped wanting to date me, and the whole kid thing was just convenient. Or maybe it was the cause, I have no idea, I wish I did. I can imagine her family, particularly her mother, was pressuring her to have kids. The last few months were very rocky and frustrating. She had developed this annoying habit of turning to stone. Whenever I tried to talk to her about anything, however minor, she would just turn around and act like I wasn't talking. Which made the idea of talking about her not talking difficult to say the least. I've often wondered what went through her head while my direct question was just floating in the air. In hindsight, I think she made the decision to break-up with me long before she actually did. So she had been emotionally prepared for it, and I was blindsighted.

Have you ever given any thought to what you would do if it turned out your vasectomy was one that reversed itself?

Without giving more information than I'm sure you want, there are certain,. um... characteristics, at the points of incision that lead me to believe its still good. Its been about six or seven years since I had it, now would probably be a good time to make sure everything is in working order. It wasn't easy finding a doctor willing to give a vasectomy to a to a single, non-father in his twenties.

Cat1864 · Oct 25, 2011, 06:25 AM

Most people who do the breaking up have thought about it for awhile and are more prepared than the person they are breaking up with. It sounds like it wasn't easy for her either when she finally made the decision. I have a feeling that something happened which caused her to come to terms with wanting to be a mother. She probably didn't discuss it with you because she already knew how you felt about being a father. I don't get the impression that you would have been open to the idea of adopting and raising a child if she did bring it up as a compromise.

She should have talked to you and been more open about her needs, but, honestly, I think all that would have done is caused fighting and words said that can never be unsaid. Would you have been open to listening to her feelings about wanting a child or would you have accused her of betraying your trust that she wanted what you did?

You're still hurting and trying to make sense of what happened. It's normal and as you get some distance from the relationship, you will be better able to look back with a bit more objectivity and understanding.

Yes, she is free to move on and have children with someone else or by herself. You are free to move on, too. You can find someone who like yourself is very open about not wanting children.

Just an observation, but when you make up your mind about something is that the way it has to be or do you leave some leeway for other perspectives and changing your mind? (Understand that I am not questioning your decision to have a vasectomy. In my own family there are certain genetic issues for not having biological children.) How do you normally react to change in your personal life?

corrigan · Oct 25, 2011, 04:01 PM

I have a feeling that something happened which caused her to come to terms with wanting to be a mother.

Part of me thinks she didn't want to commit to not having a child, and then risk being dumped by me when she was to old to have one. Which is upsetting because it means she dumped me simply as a precaution. It wouldn't surprise me, she wasn't what I would call emotionally brave.

I don't get the impression that you would have been open to the idea of adopting and raising a child if she did bring it up as a compromise.

Compromise on something like that can be difficult. I had bought her a dog that she had wanted, it cost me a thousand dollars that I didn't really have. She took the dog too when she left, which didn't help; I loved that dog. Aside from that, I don't really know what a compromise would be. My issues with having a baby would carry over to an adopted baby. Maybe adopting an adolescent? I never really thought about it.

She should have talked to you and been more open about her needs, but, honestly, I think all that would have done is caused fighting and words said that can never be unsaid.

The thing is what she did can't be undone. Even if we do someday reconcile, which is about as likely as winning the lottery while being hit by lightning, but I digress, things will never be the same again. I understand why she ambushed me, it allowed her to emotionally brace herself and left me completely off balance. It's a great tactic that negates the other person, I just don't like that it was done to me.

Would you have been open to listening to her feelings about wanting a child or would you have accused her of betraying your trust that she wanted what you did?

I would have listened, and I wouldn't have been mad. But at the end of it all, I still wouldn't have agreed to it. I was firm on my stance and she knew it. Which is why I think it might have been an escape plan.

You can find someone who like yourself is very open about not wanting children.

They can be pretty rare and don't exactly advertise. That's why it might be in my best interest to simply lie. I don't want to, but I never want to be the anvil again.

Just an observation, but when you make up your mind about something is that the way it has to be or do you leave some leeway for other perspectives and changing your mind? How do you normally react to change in your personal life?

I try to leave space for wiggle room. I guess the honest answer would be that I do my best. I can at times be a little overwhelming, but I've found that knowing I can be overwhelming has actually been more detrimental than actually being overwhelming.

BTW, thanks for talking to me, this has been helpful.

corrigan · Nov 24, 2011, 07:49 PM

My long-term girlfriend broke up with me a few months ago, and I can't get her out of my head. I'm a graduate student, so most of my mental energy has been focused on my thesis. But eventually my brain is like a wet noodle, and I have to take a break. I've been exercising constantly, but eventually I just get physically exhausted. As a side effect, I'm getting in great shape, but I digress. I've also taken up painting again, which I hadn't done since before I met her. But like my thesis, eventually I'm just mentally exhausted. My friends have lives of their own, and I can't constantly be a burden to them. I've considered volunteering, but I'm scared that would detract from my school work. So at some point I can't do anything else but sit mentally and physically exhausted in my empty apartment and think about her. What should I do? The advise I've heard is that I need to focus on school, but if I focus on nothing but academics I will go crazy. The real problem happens when I'm trying to focus on school, but my mind drifts to thoughts of my ex. BTW, I defriended her and all her friends from Facebook right after the break-up and I haven't had any contact with her since.

talaniman · Nov 24, 2011, 10:01 PM

Threads were merged together for the whole story

Volunteering is a great thing to do, and I doubt it will interfere in the rest of your life, so worth a try.

Having read your whole story though I would say to give yourself a lot more time for the good work you have already done after this break up to take full affect. That may be a lot longer than a few months. Be patient with yourself, and read the stickies here for some additional suggestions to help you move on.

Cat1864 · Nov 25, 2011, 07:08 AM

corrigan, I agree with Tal. You have come a lot farther than I think you realize.

Do you mind sharing what you field you are studying? You might be able to find volunteer work that could give you more experience in your studies. Or you could use it to give you a mental break from schoolwork so you don't burn out.

If you haven't already, you might check out the other topics here on AMHD. See if there are any questions you would like to answer. It's a great way to volunteer when you have a few minutes time and want a break from work. We also have Discussion boards for discussing topics rather than giving advice. :)

corrigan · Nov 25, 2011, 08:47 AM

If I've come so far, why does she still invade my thoughts? The only thing I've found to do is make a conscious effort to expel the thoughts. I want to go back to who I was before we met, or at least something resembling it. I used to be able to talk to people without any problem. I've been trying to start random conversations with strangers, not for any reason other than to practice talking, it just seems so forced. It's all I could think of to get my social confidence back. I just think it should have happened by now.

I'm studying mathematical logic. I also work at the school I go to. I'll tutor math on the side, and to circumvent the school's conflict of interest policy, I don't charge for it. I guess that's volunteering, I just never thought of it like that.

Wondergirl · Nov 25, 2011, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by corrigan

I used to be able to talk to people without any problem. I've been trying to start random conversations with strangers, not for any reason other than to practice talking, it just seems so forced. It's all I could think of to get my social confidence back. I just think it should have happened by now.

What you used to be able to do was "lose yourself" in the other person. You now have "you" constantly in your mind. In order to get back to where you were and be able to lose yourself again, focus on the other person -- his eyes, his body language, his facial expressions, his voice tones. Make that other person the center of your life while you are talking with him. Really care about what he says. Listen well and ask questions. Lose yourself in him.

I'm studying mathematical logic. I also work at the school I go to. I'll tutor math on the side, and to circumvent the school's conflict of interest policy, I don't charge for it. I guess that's volunteering, I just never thought of it like that.

That's a perfect solution! And be sure to keep us current on how things are going for you.

Cat1864 · Nov 25, 2011, 10:05 AM

You aren't the same person you were before so don't expect yourself to be. Even if she hadn't been in your life, you would still be a different person now. You know more things and have had more experiences. You met new people who had an impact on your life. You looked at old decisions in new ways. You've grown and are adapting to the new you.

She is going to part of your thoughts for a very long time. You spent years together building memories and thought patterns around each other. Those don't change overnight or even in a few months. You can give yourself some help by moving things around. Listen to new music. By changing your environment you change how you think about doing things and build new thought patterns.

Wondergirl has great advice about focusing on the other person when you talk to them even if it just 'hello'. Don't think about forcing yourself to interact with others that puts pressure on you leading you to think about it instead of the conversation or interaction. Let it come more naturally by being aware of the people around you. Believe it or not, being polite can help pull you out of your shell. Something as simple as 'excuse me' or 'good day' can put your mind into a pattern of interacting with others.

You are going to have ups and downs as you heal. It's a roller coaster process, but eventually the downs come less often and ups become plateaus. Give yourself time and someday it will hit you that you haven't thought about her for awhile and you really are okay.

mmresd · Nov 25, 2011, 01:53 PM

Maybe she hoped that you would either change your mind, or that she would be OK with it. But the biological clock has seem to start clicking, and aparently... you two are not longer a match.

JudyKayTee · Nov 27, 2011, 09:03 AM

Time changes things. What I wanted in my 20's was not what I wanted in my 30's. Perhaps that's what happened where the "ex" is concerned.

Why do men tell women they are never getting married and women (who want to get married) date them and trust/believe/think they are going to change the man's mind? Eventually she gives him an ultimatum, he stands fast, she (or he) walks away and the suffering begins.

I have learned a few things in life that I live by - one of them is to believe what people tell me. If you say you don't want children, she should have believed you.

Perhaps she did believe you and just changed her mind.