[Athos]

The richest one percent will save on average $205,000 in taxes. The poorest 60% (most of us) will see an INCREASE in taxes on average of $2,000.

Cain admits this, but says "it will be good in the long run". Huh?

The Republicans just get goofier and goofier.

[Fr_Chuck]

Huh, I thought even the democrats where asking for everyone to pay their "fair" share, Or is that only the rich should pay most of the share and the poorer pay nothing.

[paraclete]

The plan is interesting because it gets away from the tax havens which allow many to pay very little. It is said that that the 60% you talk of is a misnomer since 50% actually pay nothing and that cannot be good for the country since it is unable to balance its budget. It also gets rid of those inefficient state taxes

[tomder55]

It is also a transitional step to the 'Fair Tax'.

I like it in principle ;but agree with those who say it won't and shouldn't pass in Congress.

The logic is simple... in the hands of the Dems... 9-9-9 becomes 12-12-12... 15-15-15 etc. He counters that he'd require a 2/3 majority to raise taxes .Not sure how he'd get Congress to agree to that .

I like a sales tax in lieu of an income tax . I don't like the idea of the Feds collecting both. Also a sales tax would take an important revenue source from the States...

And as we all know... the bucket list 1 and bucket list 2 (now called a 'jobs bill") are attempts by the Feds to transfer money to States with 'out of balance' budgets (the ones more inclined to be mini-nanny states ) to keep public service unions appeased .

9-9-9 is a serious tax reform proposal worthy of serious debate and not flippant comments like he got from Bachmann and Huntsman during the last debate. As with all plans ;what emerges as the final law rarely resembles the initial proposal.
What I'm hearing in the OP is the tired old cliches which get boiled down to this ..... unless the tax system is structured "progressively " i.e. squeeze the rich.. then it is unfair to the poor . Blaaa blaa blaa .

[paraclete]

Tom trust the system, you would be amazed what might be collected by a system like this, it probably wouldn't need to escalate for years and you could exchange state taxes for the last 9% under a revenue sharing formula which would give states a certain growth income stream. Just think, Buffet and Gates pay all three which is more than they do now, with a little creative distribution rules on corporates it cannot be hidden

[tomder55]

Your system is different in that your states don't have autonomy. I am not comfortable with some bureaucrat in Washington deciding how much revenue my state or local government needs.

[paraclete]

Your system is different in that your states don't have autonomy. I am not comfortable with some bureaucrat in Washington deciding how much revenue my state or local government needs.

I'm not sure what you mean Tom by our states don't have autonomy. Our states exercise all powers not reserved for the federal government. Our states ceded much but not all of their taxing powers in exchange for a designated share of certain federal revenues, state and local government still raise their own revenues but there is clear oversight to prevent rorting particularly at local level. You have a very closed mind as to what might be achieved by a different approach and this 9-9-9 approach is certainly different. I understand because I know what the fear of the GST was here before it was implemented and the arguments are familiar

[tomder55]

I am sure that the GST or as the Europeans call it ;the VAT is a great source of revenue for the government to dip into. I'm not closed minded about it at all. I just say you can't have both. I'd prefer it as a replacement to the Income Tax ;but the sales tax is just but one of the 9's .

[talaniman]

Cain is pandering to his base, because the last thing a rich guy needs is more money to buy more politicians so he can suck even more money out of the economy, instead of circulating it, and making it the old fashion way, by earning it, and not making some accountant rich or play the ponies... er... I mean the stock market, which is a huge casino for the rich guys.

I would trade the nanny state for the end of corporate welfare and the job creators did there job, or fire them all and take there money.

9% sales tax on new goods? That's crazy? Even the middle class, What's LEFT OF IT, ain't going for that crap.

He needs a better plan! You guys on the right need better candidates.

[paraclete]

Tom the way to get a fair tax system is to get as broad a base as possible, I don't think you and I disagree in that particular, but one of the ways to do that is with a consumption tax. This is not to say there should not be income taxes but they are regressive particularly where the lowest earners are concerned, because their impact on individual spending power is much greater.

A 25% tax on the rich is not felt as severely as it is on a low income earner and this is because price is no respecter of persons, but a consumption tax takes much more from the rich because of their capacity to spend and their inability to avoid. Thus the base is broader. It also takes no account of unemployment since people will spend on commodities irrespective.

A effective taxation system shears the sheep with a minimum of bleating. This is a principle we know well

[talaniman]

The way to get a fair tax is the congress sitting down and negotiating, not pandering to the ones slipping them the cash, and telling them what to do!

Nobody gave a rats patoot about taxes until the money was ripped off and with held from the economy. Now we have all these cockamamie schemes about what's fair, what's NOT, who did what, who deserves what. We fight and they dictate. They laugh at us running around while they keep buying OUR politicians from us.

At least the posse has shown up on Wall Street, and they ain't arguing about abortion, welfare, tax plans, gun control, or immigration, elections, or gay rights.

They come to get the bad guys, you know the ones stopping the jobs, the economy, and the American way.

[tomder55]

Nobody gave a rats patoot about taxes until the money was ripped off and with held from the economy.

Tax reform has been a conservative cause since I was a young man and it has remained so.
The problem is that the so called liberals hold progressive redistribution as the Holy Grail .

[paraclete]

They come to get the bad guys, you know the ones stopping the jobs, the economy, and the American way.

Now where I have I heard that before? Truth, Justice and the American Way. How is that working out for you? Not so well I hear and these fellows on Wall Street aren't Superman just vigilantees in a long tradition.

Sometimes radical change is necessary and this might be the time to implement some, right at the moment where people are dissatisfied with the established thinking and order

[talaniman]

It's a slow ugly process, but it works better than any other system in the world. Don't be fooled by cheap knock offs, or want to be's.

Remodeling don't look pretty while you are doing it, but it will get done, eventually. You are taking notes aren't you?

[paraclete]

No tal, not taking notes, been there, done that. We are in a post reconstruction phase, dealt with the sources of unemployment by exporting the industries and finding the products everyone wants.

If you want to know how to do it we will send you the plans

[talaniman]

Just curious, as you exported the industries, what did you do with the unemployed people from those industries?

[paraclete]

Just curious, as you exported the industries, what did you do with the unemployed people from those industries?

Retrained them, You want the dole, you take what's available or you retrain. Now we have 5% unemployment and most of that is structural, where we had 8% and higher before. Obviously our thinking was wrong, too tied to protecting blue collar employment. We have gone from about 60% unionisation to about 20%. When we turned around unemployment we also turned around our economy and were able to produce surpluses. A big part of what we did was tax reform. You see we are not as dependent as you are on the capitalist theorum. We can allow government to be directly part of the way things are done because we are not as hung up on everything being "free". We did privatise some government enterprises along the way and I have to say that has had very mixed success with most under performing on the service side of the business

[tomder55]

Just curious, as you exported the industries, what did you do with the unemployed people from those industries?

I expect the coopers and blacksmiths had to find something else to do.

[paraclete]

I expect the coopers and blacksmiths had to find something else to do.

Oh yes Tom we put them to work in the wine industry, expanding market in Asia, you see, or perhaps you don't, we had no use for horses since we were able to buy cars from Asia and barrels are in great demand

[tomder55]

I've tasted some of the swill . They love trying to sell us wines with Kangaroo labels .