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    classyT's Avatar
    classyT Posts: 1,562, Reputation: 214
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    #21

    Jul 30, 2011, 02:38 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck View Post
    If being born a certain way is a "defense to Gods will" then a person who is born with no control to be a child molester must then be forgiven because he was born that way.

    A person who is born with other chemcial imbalance who goes on to be a mass killer, has to be forgiven since he was born that way ??

    but I am interested, you say it is a chemical imbalance, thus it is basicly a "birth defect" ? if it is considered a imbalance why is there not study for treatment, testing of child and so on. If this was any other birth defect we would have a fund raiser for research
    It is about justifying sin. I can't help certain things because I was born like that. Hey! I will be the first to say, I was born with a sin nature that likes pretty much everything... (no! Not pretty much) but EVERYTHING that God hates. So? It is what I do about it. I can explore it, I can indulge, I can go with it but I can't fix it! I need to be born again... just like Nicodemous back in the gospel of John. That is the only remedy to any of it... just my thoughts
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    #22

    Jul 30, 2011, 03:15 PM
    He is correct, it is more complicated. Personally, I don't believe that someone is "born" homosexual, but his or her life shapes him into what he or she becomes. I believe that everything happens for a reason. I do not believe in fate, but I do believe in His Will and what he has planned for every one of us. Maybe he does have something specific planned for me, and whether I go down one path or the other, I suppose I'm going to find out. So thank you all for the advice. :)
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    #23

    Jul 30, 2011, 03:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Being entitled to believe that has nothing to do with the truth of it.
    The truth of what? What is it you are arguing? What IS the truth.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 38,813, Reputation: 5431
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    #24

    Jul 30, 2011, 03:20 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    The truth of what? what is it you are arguing? what IS the truth.
    You were the one arguing:

    Originally Posted by classyT:
    you are entitled to believe that people are NOT born homosexual.


    I'm not sure what "entitled to believe" means.
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,302, Reputation: 7692
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    #25

    Jul 30, 2011, 03:31 PM

    We could perhaps further discuss some of this on a new thread in discussion or relationship,

    The issue here is that it was posted in Christianity and most of all Christian faiths have declared homosexual relationships to be outside of Gods will.

    There are a few socially progressive groups that have accepted it, and even call it a blessing from God. But then man has often written his own beleifs and religion to justify doing their own will. Or in churches to my belief get all of that homosexual dollar, in donations, so they sell out their teachings and beliefs for large donations. If you want, you can find almost any personal belief accepted in some churches.

    But as for as this question, not only most Christian Churches do not accept it.
    hauntinghelper's Avatar
    hauntinghelper Posts: 2,854, Reputation: 290
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    #26

    Jul 30, 2011, 03:36 PM
    Comment on Wondergirl's post
    Go right ahead... you can give them my phone number as well.
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,314, Reputation: 175
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    #27

    Jul 30, 2011, 03:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Needin'Answers View Post
    He is correct, it is more complicated. Personally, I don't believe that someone is "born" homosexual, but his or her life shapes him into what he or she becomes. I believe that everything happens for a reason. I do not believe in fate, but I do believe in His Will and what he has planned for each and every one of us. Maybe he does have something specific planned for me, and whether I go down one path or the other, I suppose I'm going to find out. So thank you all for the advice. :)
    I honestly don't know if people are born with one orientation or another. I think the evidence is pretty equivocal at this point. I do know that all of the gay and bi people I know seem to have some sort of "trigger" in their past, usually something parental, that has left a gap or need in the person and causes them to gravitate toward a certain gender. I've also seen testimony from people who claim not to have any such childhood triggers, so I don't know. But in the end, it really doesn't matter.

    I was born with Attention Deficit Disorder. I have one of the most severe cases anybody has ever seen. The experts say nobody has all 20 of the criteria for determining it; they've never met me, because I do. The fact that I was born with it does not constitute license for me to be a chronic space case who never finishes anything, blurts out the first thing that comes to mind no matter who it hurts, and all the rest that goes with being an adult with ADD. I seek treatment. In my case, it's medication that gives me control of my scrambled brain. Enough research has been done on ADD that we have some clue about different ways to deal with it.

    With the whole gay thing, nobody is exploring treatment because in current society, sex is the Great Sacred Cow and anything goes. Nothing is considered deviant or "abnormal" because western society worships sex. That's pretty much what it comes down to. But as my ADD suggests, being born a certain way doesn't mean that God is going to approve of acting on it. In fact, Romans 1 strongly suggests that same-sex attraction is part of the Fall. But I'm not about to go to the stake for that idea.
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    #28

    Jul 30, 2011, 04:00 PM
    Jeremiah 29:11-12
    11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you.

    Yes, Needin', He does have a plan for you... and as described in the Bible it is a wonderful and perfect plan. But it is also a plan that has a catch to it. It's not a "live anyway you want to with a fairytale ending" plan. As you you admitted it is up to you whether you search out that plan or you do whatever you want. The way we find out what that plan is is by living by what we DO know. He doesn't have the same thing planned for everyone, but we all have the same foundation. Once that is established He will order your steps to where He wants you and needs you. I never once said this was an easy step or an easy choice and I'm sure this is a very tough thing to deal with... I'm not doubting that at all. Regardless of your path, don't think God stops loving you or gives up hope in you, but He is not going to FORCE His will in your life.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #29

    Jul 30, 2011, 04:40 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Needin'Answers View Post
    I'm having this internal conflict about choosing a "side."
    Hello N:

    If it were me, I'd NEVER be part of an organization that damned me to hell. I don't know why YOU would either... If you're looking for this group to tell you that you're really OK, and you're NOT going to hell, you might as well learn how to fly.

    However, that doesn't mean you have to do without. There ARE Christian congregations where you WILL be accepted for who you are. I'd find one.

    excon
    classyT's Avatar
    classyT Posts: 1,562, Reputation: 214
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    #30

    Jul 30, 2011, 06:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello N:

    If it were me, I'd NEVER be part of an organization that damned me to hell. I don't know why YOU would either... If you're looking for this group to tell you that you're really OK, and you're NOT going to hell, you might as well learn how to fly.

    However, that doesn't mean you have to do without. There ARE Christian congregations where you WILL be accepted for who you are. I'd find one.

    excon
    Ugh... who damned the OP to hell? Who is the "THIS" group you are referring to. Don't mess with me Exy... I'm a woman on the edge. The only Christianity I know is in the bible and it is the one I follow. It is all about grace, love and forgiveness. It has nothing to do with being damned and rejected. It isn't even about being good and following the rules.

    I've already been accused of having inappropriate avatars this week... I'm NOT going to be lumped into an organization of disapproving, judgmental people just because I am a Christian. Being judged goes both ways... good thing I like you so good. You could have gotten a real lashing from me. ;)
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,314, Reputation: 175
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    #31

    Jul 30, 2011, 09:22 PM

    Needing,
    Don't let anybody tell you that you're damned. If you're really a Christian, then you are. We don't earn God's grace, we accept it. He offers freely and we receive when we trust him to save us. It's not about what you do, it's about Who you know. I suspect that the people who treat homosexuality as if it were so much worse than any other sin, are hiding something. God loves you just as much as he loves anybody else, and you're very important to him. Hang on to that and tell those people to go crawl back under their rock.
    jakester's Avatar
    jakester Posts: 582, Reputation: 165
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    #32

    Aug 2, 2011, 07:04 PM

    Dwash - let me say that I agree with your line of thought on the central issues raised in this thread.

    As I see it, we are born sinners: we are selfish, vengeful, defensive, and want to win an argument just to be right which is pride. Anyone who is even partially alive to the trouble we cause as human beings in this world knows full well all that we are capable of committing... some of us are just a little more civilized in our ability to restrain our sinful tendencies but not doing wrong doesn't negate the evil desire present in our hearts.

    I don't believe man will be condemned to hell because of sexual orientation but because of his refusal to bow his knee to his creator. When we say the only unforgivable sin is unbelief, it takes some additional unpacking to get at the heart of what that means. Basically, unbelief is a refusal to accept God... it is a refusal to see life from his perspective... it is a denial of his judgment of us to be sinners deserving of destruction... it is a refusal to adopt God's moral vision for life and choosing to rebel against God... it is a refusal to accept the outstretched hand of mercy that he extends to mankind.

    Like dwash said, maybe some people are born with a proclivity towards homosexuality. But it really doesn't matter. The admonition we all have before us as human beings is to deny the flesh... to persevere in doing good. And that requires saying no to our fleshly appetites even though the urge is so strong and at times we succumb to those appetites. All of us have stories of sins that we are weak to fight against... those of you reading this who really knows himself/herself, you know your struggles. Homosexuality is just as real a struggle for people as anything else.

    If we attempt to rationalize away our responsibility towards pursuing God's moral vision of what is right and fitting by saying that we are born a certain way, that is tantamount to excusing ourselves from pursuing goodness. The question we have to answer is, regardless of whether we feel we are born a certain way with respect to homosexuality, is it God's desire for someone to persist in it? I was born selfish... I struggle to be a giving person in my own life so that does that give me reason to persist in my selfishness?

    People stop short of the real issue by saying that people are born a certain way, sexually... sometimes what they are really saying is that man has freedom to live his life however he wants to and that if there even is a God, who is he to tell us how we should live?

    But that's me.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,813, Reputation: 5431
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    #33

    Aug 2, 2011, 07:17 PM

    Quote Originally Posted by jakester
    regardless of whether we feel we are born a certain way with respect to homosexuality, is it God's desire for someone to persist in it?
    Being born homosexual means that is who he is, just like being born heterosexual means that is who he is. Neither term says anything about action, but simply speaks to identity. "Being born" a certain way trumps "choosing" a certain way. Sexual acting out in one of those two ways is a whole 'nother ballgame.

    Or are you in the pray-away-the-gay crowd?
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    #34

    Aug 2, 2011, 07:32 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Being born homosexual means that is who he is, just like being born heterosexual means that is who he is. Neither term says anything about action, but simply speaks to identity. "Being born" a certain way trumps "choosing" a certain way. Sexual acting out in one of those two ways is a whole 'nother ballgame.

    Or are you in the pray-away-the-gay crowd?
    Ok, I see your point or at least how you put this together. No, I'm certainly not in the pray-away-the-gay crowd... I have friends who are gay and I don't feel the need to pray them away. I do not think of it as normal sexuality in the sense that you do but I can still see the person as something worth loving and respecting because that is expected by God, I believe.

    I suppose it is a matter of fundamentals, here, WG. Your starting point is that being gay is not in violation of any human biology so naturally, you wouldn't think that God has any problem with it either? Out of curiosity, do you think the bible prohibits sexuality or is teaching us to embrace it?

    I'm not being smart, I'm just trying to better understand your position. Plus, I respect you and wouldn't be trying to pick a fight with you so don't feel threatened by my question... I'm genuinely interested in knowing where you stand on this issue.
    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,302, Reputation: 7692
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    #35

    Aug 2, 2011, 07:35 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    Needin,
    Don't let anybody tell you that you're damned. If you're really a Christian, then you are. We don't earn God's grace, we accept it. He offers freely and we receive when we trust him to save us. It's not about what you do, it's about Who you know. I suspect that the people who treat homosexuality as if it were so much worse than any other sin, are hiding something. God loves you just as much as he loves anybody else, and you're very important to him. Hang on to that and tell those people to go crawl back under their rock.
    So you agree then it is a sin, just that it should not be treated differently than other sins ?
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    dwashbur Posts: 1,314, Reputation: 175
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    #36

    Aug 2, 2011, 07:45 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck View Post
    So you agree then it is a sin, just that it should not be treated differently than other sins ?
    That depends on what you mean by "it." Orientation? No. Behavior? Yes. And yes, I do not believe "it" should be treated differently than other sins.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 38,813, Reputation: 5431
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    #37

    Aug 2, 2011, 07:47 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jakester View Post
    I suppose it is a matter of fundamentals, here, WG. Your starting point is that being gay is not in violation of any human biology so naturally, you wouldn't think that God has any problem with it either? Out of curiosity, do you think the bible prohibits sexuality or is teaching us to embrace it?
    You're still missing my point.

    Being gay, however the person got that way -- from something that happened before he was born or because of something that happened during his very early childhood -- has nothing to do with acting out sexually, but has everything to do with his identity, who he is.

    Say he is homosexual, but lives a life of chastity. Would God have a problem with that?
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,314, Reputation: 175
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    #38

    Aug 2, 2011, 09:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    You're still missing my point.

    Being gay, however the person got that way -- from something that happened before he was born or because of something that happened during his very early childhood -- has nothing to do with acting out sexually, but has everything to do with his identity, who he is.

    Say he is homosexual, but lives a life of chastity. Would God have a problem with that?
    That's more or less what I was saying. I make a distinction between orientation, regardless of how it came about, and behavior. However, I'm going to shift into Sir Nitpick persona for just a moment.

    Sexuality is not identity. It is not "who he is." It's only a part, and a fairly small part at that. I have a real problem with people who define themselves and their identity by who they're attracted to. A person is SO much more than that. It's an aspect of identity, yes, but only one aspect. There are dozens, perhaps hundreds, more, and a lot of them are much more important than sexuality. Priests and nuns who choose a life of celibacy are not denying who they are. They are choosing to set aside one small aspect of their identity in favor of other aspects that they consider more important. I really respect them for that.

    Okay, it's me again. I agree with Nitpick.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
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    #39

    Aug 2, 2011, 10:48 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    That's more or less what I was saying. I make a distinction between orientation, regardless of how it came about, and behavior.
    If yer tawkin' ta me, dwashbur, I was responding to Jakester, not you. I should have addressed him at the beginning of my post. You and I were posting pretty much the same thing at the same time, thus we didn't see each other's post.
    Sexuality is not identity.
    I realize that, but was simply trying to make a distinction between "choosing to be" and "being." That seemed to be the stumbling block in this thread. He may also be a "people-person," a book lover, good with numbers, a fantastic cook, and afraid of dogs.
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    #40

    Aug 3, 2011, 04:45 AM

    WG - I actually see it the way dwash sees it where a person's sexuality is not his identity and would make a distinction too regarding orientation and behavior. I don't think I could add anything to what he said regarding that so I'll just let his statement act as my answer to you.

    Good day to you, miss ;)

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