[Aurora_Bell]

I need to write a paper for my law class, and I chose to do it on Breed Specific Legislation. It requires me to use 4 different sources of info.I have books, online, magazines, and I am doing an interview with a lady from the shelter I work at. What I was really hoping for was another interview with someone who investigates dog bites, or dog attacks, or even lawyers who have handled dog bite cases.

I'm not sure where to start looking for such people, so I came here! Is there anyone out there who could spare a few min to answer some questions? Also, I'm really drawing a blank on what kinds of questions I should ask? I feel pretty confident with the information I have gathered so far, but would like any insight or suggestions!

[LisaB4657]

I've never handled a dog bite case so I can't help you with that. But here's a suggestion for you... how about interviewing the Animal Control Officer in your town?

[AK lawyer]

I've never handled a dog bite case so I can't help you with that. But here's a suggestion for you...how about interviewing the Animal Control Officer in your town?

Me neither; just prosecuted a few animal control cases. So I would agree: talk to your local ACO ("dog catcher").

[Aurora_Bell]

Oh excellent suggestion! Thank you LisaB!

[JudyKayTee]

As far as I know I'm the only investigator who posts on AMHD.

My credentials? I investigate at least 20 dog bite incidents a year. Usually 1 or 2 involve mauling. I have investigated more Lab bites than any other breed, possibly because there are more Labs in my area (and anything mixed and sort of unidentifiable is called a "Lab" because it's an easy label). Four worst maulings I've investigated - St. Bernard (attacked his owner's toddler child), Akita (this particular dog is the only dog I've ever been afraid of), German Shepherd (and I've had them all my life), Pitbull (which only stopped attacking when stabbed to death).

I investigate on behalf of the injured party, of course. I worked one dog fight ring with the Police (simply by circumstance), and one of my dogs is a rescue from a dog fight ring. She came to me through a Police Officer friend. It's my job to prove (using facts and testimony) that the owners knew or should have known the dog has/had vicious propensities.

Because of breed banning I had to fight with two different Homeowners Insurance Companies in order to get coverage. I've seen very obvious breeds (some of them with papers) licensed as something else in order to avoid breed banning. I refused to go that way because it hands the insurance company a reason to deny any claim.

I also carry a high umbrella policy. I've also done a couple of "neighborhood canvasses" for insurance companies investigating whether to write a policy.

I worked in dog rescue; my stepdaughter works in dog rescue and fosters pitbulls.

What do you need to know for your paper? What direction are you going? I do not know the law in Nova Scotia - are you simply looking for experience and nothing region specific?

[Aurora_Bell]

I am only looking for experience, I do have regional testimony's, but seeing as BSL affects (effcts?) all breed owners all over the world, I was--truthfully-- hoping you would lend your experience.

So basically I am focusing on the "pit-bull"( anything they are classifying as a pit-bull) breed, that's where I know most of my stuff. I have information on what is considered a pit, what BSL is, I even have some slide shows on "finding the pit". I have Canadian bite records... my goal there is to prove how un-reliable they actually are. My opinions are obviously going to be biased, seeing as I really only focus on fostering the bully breeds, and the rescue group that I spend most of my time with only deals with bully's and those being euthanized solely on their breed.

I guess I would like to be able to use the statement you gave above

My credentials? I investigate at least 20 dog bite incidents a year. Usually 1 or 2 involve mauling. I have investigated more Lab bites than any other breed, possibly because there are more Labs in my area (and anything mixed and sort of unidentifiable is called a "Lab" because it's an easy label). Four worst maulings I've investigated - St. Bernard (attacked his owner's toddler child), Akita (this particular dog is the only dog I've ever been afraid of), German Shepherd (and I've had them all my life), Pitbull (which only stopped attacking when stabbed to death).

And maybe some questions dealing with your opinion on the breed as an investigator and your opinion as a shelter volunteer. I would love some guidance to keep my paper as professional and accurate as possible. So any thing you would think is important for the public to know would be great... good or bad. My goal is to bring attention to BSL and that good dogs are dying. Not necessarily being a martyr for the pit's. Although I truly believe it has to do with breeding and ownership IMO.

[JudyKayTee]

I guess I would like to be able to use the statement you gave above

And maybe some questions dealing with your opinion on the breed as an investigator and your opinion as a shelter volunteer. I would love some guidance to keep my paper as professional and accurate as possible. So any thing you would think is important for the public to know would be great...good or bad. my goal is to bring attention to BSL and that good dogs are dying. Not necessarily being a martyr for the pit's. Although I truly believe it has to do with breeding and ownership IMO.

Certainly - feel free to use what I posted. No problem.

As I said, I don't see a lot of pit bull bites. I do find that I'm very often assigned a case and the dog is described as a "PB" (for purposes of our conversation, to keep it short) and I get there and it's some beige or brown or white dog, usually NOT a PB. Same with big dogs - it's almost ALWAYS a GSD. Then I get there it's large and shaggy and that's the only similarity.

If those biting dogs are listed as PBs, even though they are not, there's another bad statistic.

I know little about the breed. My stepdaughter has one, fosters them, works in rescue (as a paid employee). Her dog is very sweet (I know of no other word to describe him). He's neutered, he's obedient, he's almost docile. Do I trust him? Absolutely. He's the first PB I've ever known/had contact with.

I can tell you what I ask about when I investigate (and I don't know how much of this you need. Tell me if you need more or less or I've bored you to sleep). Any training? For what purpose? Who trained the dog? What were that person's credentials? Where did you get the dog? Does he/she have papers? Is he/she neutered. HERE'S AN IMPORTANT ONE: Did you get the dog for protection or is he/she a pet? Any previous attacks or bites? Any sign of vicious propensities? (Most people don't know what propensities mean so at this point they stare at me.) How is he when people visit? How is he with the family? Children? HERE'S ANOTHER IMPORTANT ONE: How is he when he sees the mailman? (Yes, it's an unfair question but I ask it - my dogs hate the UPS truck, not the driver, so that would be an unfair question if MY dogs were being evaluated.)

Are you the first owner? Who was the previous owner? Who is your Vet? Are the shots up to date? THEN I INTERVIEW THE VET IF THE BITE IS BAD ENOUGH.

Then we get to the hard core stuff - do you have insurance? Does your landlord (if they rent) have insurance? Does the landlord know the dog? How is the dog with the landlord? THEN I INTERVIEW THE LANDLORD.

I'm almost always (because I legitimately like dogs) allowed to see the dog. Most of them are friendly, some are cautious. In all the years I've been doing this work I've one dog snap at me. Keep in mind that I don't rush up and hug them! Of course, I live with two dogs so I'm sure in the dog's eyes I smell great! I observe the owner and/or other family members with the dog. Is there a lot of yelling and slapping and "bad dog" and so forth?

As you can see from the above droning on - blah, blah, blah - the training is important, very important. The Court system in NY has recognized that a bad trainer or bad owner can make a dog go bad.

I do not see the dogs (in my area, usually PBs and mastiffs) that guard drug houses, things like that. I see the dogs who have bitten or attacked and the person was injured badly enough to consult with an Attorney. I see a lot of bites to children but interestingly enough most of those bites as small, nervous breeds and, because of their size, the child is on the floor, playing with the dog, and gets bitten in the face.

One of the things I run into when I have my stepdaughter's dog with me is other people's perception. Same with my dogs. I see people cringe, become defensive, become nervous, and the dogs pick up on that. PBs also have such a bad rep that I've had people, total strangers, come up to me and say, "I wouldn't OWN a dog like that. I'd be afraid for my CHILDREN." I've been known to say, "I wouldn't allow my CHILDREN to behave like that" because at this point the kids are teasing the dogs.

Yes, PBs have a bad rap. Again, I don't see a lot of PB bites BUT if every dog that is certain colors and a certain size is classified as a PB the statistics are off. Interesting enough (and I just went through a couple of files) I have NEVER had a bite when the PB wasn't around 2 years old and unneutered. A Dog Warden/Animal Control Officer once told me that they get aggressive when they become sexually mature. I have no idea if this is true. Of course, I also had a DW/ACO tell me they are dangerous because their jaws lock and we all know that's not true either.

Bored yet?

[Aurora_Bell]

Not bored at all. Very interesting stuff. I'd like to use this whole post as a testimony, if I may. All very pertinent to what I want to get across to the masses.

What really perks my interest is the "classifying" of dogs. In your opinion, why do you think they lump these dogs as "PB's" or GSD's? In your opinion do you think people want to feed the bad rep, maybe not so much intentionally, but for the media's sake? (Does that make sense?) When you go to investigate, do you find that the bites are mainly provoked or un-provoked, and is there any way to judge that (if so, how?) You mentioned a lot of the bites have to do with children and small dogs, do you think that small dog bites are more likely to go un-reported opposed to those from bigger dogs? Do you, as an investigator believe this has to do with the end result/damage difference?

I know some of these questions seem common sense to you and I, but I think a lot of people don't realize how dog bite stats are actually calculated.

How many of the dog bites that you investigate are from family pets attacking family members opposed to strangers? And what kind of statement would you include in your process if the dog was getting all kinds of slaps and "bad dogs" when you went to meet the dog? How would this effect the outcome of the dogs life or sentence?

[Alty]

Bella, I'm in no way a legal expert, nor am I an investigator, but I do think I have an answer for you regarding why so many pitbulls get blamed for attacks when the dog that bit wasn't a pitbull at all.

See the below link.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source...38aMZA&cad=rja

It's a great test, and most people that take it, even people that are familiar with breeds, and familiar with pitbulls, can't pick out the pitbull their first try. I hate to admit it, it took me 8 tries to find the pit, and at the end I was just guessing.

I think that most times the person that was attacked believes the dog was a pitbull, when in fact it wasn't. This may be due to bad press, the fact that the public is so afraid of these dogs because of all these reports. But, I don't think that the majority of dog attack victims are claiming the dog was a pitbull just to further their bad rep. I really believe it's just a case of mistaken breed identification.

[Aurora_Bell]

Heheh I think I'm the one who showed that to you! Lol

Yea I have a slide show with this in it. Thanks though!

[JudyKayTee]

They get lumped because people don't recognize breeds. If it's sleek and bites, it MUST be a PB. If it's shaggy and bites, it MUST be a GSD. That's how the people I deal with think. I don't think it's intentional.

Some are provoked; some are not. When children are involved it's anybody's guess. When adults are involved they can at least tell you what happened and how it happened. If it's not witnessed and it's a child, no way to know. Children under a certain age are presumed by law to not be responsible so that often doesn't factor into things.

My experience is small dog bites are more likely to be turned over the Attorneys (keep in mind I have nothing to do with reports filed with the Police unless I'm investigating a bite) because they are to children's faces. The risks of scaring, trauma are higher than when adults are involved. There is also a sense of outrage when a child is bitten.

I can think of exactly two dog bites to family members, one of them an outright attack. Of course, if your own dog bites you you aren't going to sue the dog and you can't sue yourself so you don't contact an Attorney. Other family members don't sue because they either settle directly with the HO insurance or the owner. I don't get involved.

I have nothing to do with what happens to the dog. I report to the Attorney what I find (mean tempered, vicious, previous bites, vicious propensities, neighbors are afraid, dog was not a problem for me, dog is high strung, whatever it is) and she/he decides whether to sue or not to sue. On an occasion or two (or three) the Attorney has requested that the dog be removed from the home - in those cases my report was my testimony and I did not have to appear.

I testify frequently in other matters but with a dog bite I did not witness and can only give an educated guess as to temperament I am not needed. My report (and findings and photos) stands.

Some of this is also based on whether there is insurance in place. Once I was asked to testify in Court when the Dog Control Officer sought an Order to put a dog down. My experience was not the same as the Dog Control Officer - but I don't wear a uniform, I didn't try to snare the dog, I didn't drag him around with a come-along.

I am not a big fan of DCO (and I know they have a difficult job to do) but as I stood there with my GSD, in the local Park, the DCO (who knows me and was driving through) stopped and asked me what kind of dog she is. Trust me, she looks like a GSD. She is a GSD. He didn't know.

My opinion? The prejudices of the Police (who raid drug houses and get attacked, usually by Rotts and PBs in my area) and DCO (who may think everything is a PB) very often factor into the report of the incident.

[Alty]

Some are provoked; some are not. When children are involved it's anybody's guess. When adults are involved they can at least tell you what happened and how it happened. If it's not witnessed and it's a child, no way to know. Children under a certain age are presumed by law to not be responsible so that often doesn't factor into things.

Reminds me of a story I read once by a very well known trainer. Not so well known that I can remember his name though. ;)

He often had people writing in for advice about their dogs.

Well, he got a letter from a concerned mom. They had a doberman, and a 2 year old child.

She wanted to know if they should put the doberman down because he had bitten their 2 year old daughter.

So the trainer asked what happened.

The mother went on to describe the incident. She had been watching through the kitchen window.

The doberman and the child were in the backyard together. The dog was doing it's thing, sniffing, peeing, playing. Well, the 2 year old walks up to the dog with a baseball bat that was left out, and hits the dog a few times with the bat.

The dog bit. No blood was drawn. Only a scratch to show for the incident.

So the trainer wrote back to the mother of this child and gave this advice. I can't quote it exactly, but this was the gist of it:

Teach your daughter how to respect animals, and be a better parent. Why would you leave a 2 year old alone in the yard with any animal? Bad mom!

Second, give that doberman a treat and a good boy. He could have ripped her face off, but he didn't. That's a good dog!

Sorry, I know it has nothing to do with this thread, just had to share. That was one of the best things I ever read. Way to go nameless trainer! :)

[Aurora_Bell]

The mother went on to describe the incident. She had been watching through the kitchen window.

That's the problem right there. I don't know how credible it is, but the trainer I have been seeing told me that most in home bites happen when parents are cooking supper, doing laundry, cleaning bedrooms... etc etc...

[Aurora_Bell]

Judy, thank you. I am sure I will have more questions once I get this paper rolling. I usually try to save the interviews for the last (they're my favorite part), I can update the thread as I go, and if you (or anyone else) would like to add anything feel free. If it's a fact, I need a reference for my citations.

[Alty]

That's the problem right there. I don't know how credible it is, but the trainer I have been seeing told me that most in home bites happen when parents are cooking supper, doing laundry, cleaning bedrooms... etc etc...

I believe it.

It's been stated by so many experts that you should never leave your dog (s) alone with your children, because dogs are unpredictable. You never know what they'll do.

I have three dogs in my care. A very strange mix of breeds. When we adopted Jasper (the border collie mix, mainly border collie) we were told by the shelter that this breed is not recommended for families with young children. Jared was 3 at the time and Sydney was on the way. We were only allowed to take Jasper because they know me, and he was on death row.

I can honestly say that none of my dogs has every bitten one of the kids. They have nipped, and each time they have, it was provoked by the kids.

Kids don't know how to treat animals. Not their fault, when they're young they simply don't understand.

But, if an animal bites because a two year old hits him on the head with a bat, and mom in her infinite wisdom left them alone together, is it really the dogs fault?

[JudyKayTee]

That's the problem right there. I don't know how credible it is, but the trainer I have been seeing told me that most in home bites happen when parents are cooking supper, doing laundry, cleaning bedrooms... etc etc...

The difference between a trainer's experience and mine is that I don't get called in until someone either can't settle with an insurance company or owner OR is considering a lawsuit. I have no idea what goes on out there outside of that.

Maybe when a dog bites a family member people go to a trainer because it's somewhat minor - ? I most probably wouldn't even get a severe bite under those circumstances because the homeowner/parent can't sue himself/herself.

I will add a little to what Alty said and this is also about being a responsible pet owner - dog bites neighbor's child. I go and do my investigation. When I say, "Has the dog ever bitten before?" the owner stops and ponders the question and says, "Well, no one outside the family." Hello?

Also interesting but entirely off point - I was working on a dog bite investigation when the woman's ferret (which I had not seen up to that point) ran (and I do mean ran!) over and bit me in the calf. No idea why. I figured it was siding with the dog. At any rate I have some sort of aversion to ferrets now.

[JudyKayTee]

Sorry for the late response - sure, if you need more info, anything more specific, let me know.

I will also mention that I got a number of "the dog knocked me down" investigations every year involving dogs which jump up and take people by surprise, people then lose their footing. Happens with children and big dogs.

I also had an investigation where a child was injured when a dog grabbed him by the hood (on a sweatshirt) and dragged him around the yard. Ended up that the owners of the dog allowed the dog to play "tug" with the children, using the children's clothing (which they were wearing) as the "tug" toy.

Dog didn't know the difference.

[Aurora_Bell]

Sorry this took me so long to post. I got 100% on the project. I'm attaching it here of anyone is interested in having a look see.


Hmm seems I don't know how... It's a power point presentation, anyone know how I would attach that?