[Wondergirl]

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12

Supposing faith really is "work." Paul says that's a good thing, and that it's a "work" that we're supposed to do that is essential for salvation.

But we don't do the work of Justification. Jesus did that.

We don't help God find us and come to us wherever we are. God does that all by Himself.

We DO participate with the Holy Spirit in Sanctification, "keeping us in faith." We make God-pleasing choices, not bad ones. That's the only "working out of our own salvation" that we do.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting Wondergirl:
"We make God-pleasing choices, not bad ones."

I don't trust theological terms like "sanctification." Though I know what the word itself means. But it's much too easy to twist the $5.00 words and use them to obscure the plain meaning. I would define "making God-pleasing choices" as simply obedience to the best of our ability. Though we all know that we fail to obey from time to time. So does that mean we are not saved then ? Have the saved ones then lost their justification ? I believe NOT.

And I would strongly deny that our obedience is essential to "justification." If by justification you mean God's work of having selected the saved ones, and having made payment for their sins.

Finally I would like to say, for the purposes of this discussion, that I consider "justification" the essence of salvation. And "the working out of our salvation with fear and trembling" can be re-written, for the sake of clarification only, as "the working out (of) the details of our lives with fear and trembling." And that applies ONLY to those who have already been justified.

[classyT]

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12

Supposing faith really is "work." Paul says that's a good thing, and that it's a "work" that we're supposed to do that is essential for salvation.

Well I guess you are right kind of, sort of. But he cannot be talking about working out salvation so that we can be saved from our sins. Because he is clear that happened when we believed.

Instead it is a picture of our new life where all our needs – need for forgiveness, deliverance, healing, provision – are supplied according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. Phil 4:19 Jesus did so much more than just save us from our sins, he delivered us from the curse, he bore our sickeness and diseases. So we need to work that out in our lives... sometimes it is very scary to believe and trust God especially when we don't see the answer in front of us. Keep on believing , keep on trusting, keep on renewing your mind. That's my take. It goes along with what Paul says concerning grace, salvation, and works. Am I off the wall here?

[Wondergirl]

I would define "making God-pleasing choices" as simply obedience to the best of our ability.

Six of one and a half dozen of the other. Same difference. Your words are as inexpensive as mine.

And I would strongly deny that our obedience is essential to "justification."

I agree.

If by justification you mean God's work of having selected the saved ones, and having made payment for their sins.

I disagree. ALL are saved. Some say no, but thanks anyway.

Finally I would like to say, for the purposes of this discussion, that I consider "justification" the essence of salvation.

I agree.

And "the working out of our salvation with fear and trembling" can be re-written, for the sake of clarification only, as "the working out (of) the details of our lives with fear and trembling." And that applies ONLY to those who have already been justified.

That makes no sense. What "details of our lives"?

[classyT]

Moreover, the reference you've given about Paul telling the jailer at Philipi how to become saved is a very valid one. BUT, and this is a very big but, ....it's a trap. God put that kind of APPARENTLY crystal clear language into the Bible to test us. And the test is this: Will we look at EVERY passage in the ENTIRE Bible that has anything AT ALL to say about salvation BEFORE we DARE to draw ANY FINAL CONCLUSION about how salvation actually works ? A tall order indeed. But NOT impossible. In fact my understanding is based on such information. That is why I'm SO ADAMANT about this issue.

Good GRIEF Headstrong.. who raised you? You don't trust people or God at all. He isn't trying to trap anyone. He is calling out a people for his namesake.. who? Whosoever will may come. He is love... he isn't into trickery. He loves you... why is that such a hard thing for you to accept?

[dwashbur]

Am i off the wall here?

Always :D:p But seriously... I agree with everything you said. My point was that, even supposing that faith is a "work" as HSB tries to insist, that does NOT mean it isn't a requirement for salvation.

Faith, especially in the New Testament, is an active thing. It's not something that can be quantified or measured, it's not a commodity or a "thing" or even a feeling. It's a doing. In fact, I generally prefer to say "trust," because that implies something I actually do and not just something I can claim to "have." And in the New Testament the two words are pretty much synonymous: I have faith in Jesus as my savior/I trust Jesus as my savior. Or the old saw, faith is F-A-I-T-H: Forsaking All I Trust Him.

In a very real sense, "faith" in the New Testament is a verb.

[classyT]

Tess,
I think you and Jakester are saying essentially the same thing. He speaks of compassion and mercy, you speak of grace. They're various sides of the same coin, in a very real sense. I really don't see any essential disagreement between what he said and what you're saying. And for what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree with both of you.

Maybe we were. I just want him to totally encompass all that grace is all that Jesus died to give us. Plus I disagreed with him over the A&S question. I hardly ever disagree with him. You can't mix law with grace. They either were not being delt with under grace or they were simply not saved. Otherwise it makes no sense. It doesn't fit with grace.. the Lord wasn't looking at them as the righteousness of Christ and accpeted in the beloved. No way, no how. YIKES.. of course that revelation hadn't been revealed when they died. OK... I will shut up. No one agrees with me. See HSB... we don't always pat each other on the back.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting classyT:
"he loves you...why is that such a hard thing for you to accept?"

I do accept it, but with qualifications. He continues to love the whole world by making the "sun to shine and the (benevolent) rain to fall on the just and on the unjust." And He offers the Bible (His message) to all. But not all will be saved, because not all sins have been paid for. So in a way you COULD say, for the sake of this discussion, that the offer of salvation to all is NOT ENTIRELY SINCERE.

[Wondergirl]

Quoting classyT:
"he loves you...why is that such a hard thing for you to accept?"

I do accept it, but with qualifications.

That's your limitation, your failing, not His.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting Wondergirl:
"That's your limitation, your failing, not His"

You've jumped on my words without understanding my complete meaning. If I could, if it would make the least difference I would CERTAINLY ACCEPT the great gift of salvation (justification). The problem is that that great gift IS NOT AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE, just for the asking. God has already decided who IS GOING to and WHO IS NOT GOING TO GET IT. Regardless of anything we might think, say, or do.

[Wondergirl]

Quoting Wondergirl:
"That's your limitation, your failing, not His"

You've jumped on my words without understanding my complete meaning ... God has already decided who IS GOING to and WHO IS NOT GOING TO GET IT. Regardless of anything we might think, say, or do.

You are misunderstanding what has been written in the Bible, especially the Gospel. You are making salvation so difficult, almost impossible. That's not how it is -- praise God!

[jakester]

Maybe we were. I just want him to totally encompass all that grace is all that Jesus died to give us. Plus I disagreed with him over the A&S question. I hardly ever disagree with him. You can't mix law with grace. They either were not being delt with under grace or they were simply not saved. Otherwise it makes no sense. It doesn't fit with grace..the Lord wasn't looking at them as the righteousness of Christ and accpeted in the beloved. No way, no how. YIKES..of course that revelation hadn't been revealed when they died. ok.....i will shut up. No one agrees with me. See HSB...we don't always pat each other on the back.

Hey Tess - ouch, so I'm mixing the law with grace, huh? Man, I don't think I've ever heard a harsher charged leveled against me than that but OK. Actually, I thought you agreed with me on the A&S question but you still had a hang up the question of it being under the law or grace.

If I am mixing the law with grace, you know what Paul's charge to such people is? That they should be cut off. I won't answer that charge but it does make me realize how challenging it is to convey ideas through this medium... sometimes a simple face-to-face conversation would melt away any confusion or mis-communication... I would prefer that. But I am slowly coming to the realization that sometimes these internet exchanges are exercises in futility.

At any rate, thanks guys. This has been an interesting discussion.

Off Thread ----------------

[dwashbur]

hey Tess - ouch, so I'm mixing the law with grace, huh? Man, I don't think I've ever heard a harsher charged leveled against me than that but ok. Actually, I thought you agreed with me on the A&S question but you still had a hang up the question of it being under the law or grace.

If I am mixing the law with grace, you know what Paul's charge to such people is? That they should be cut off. I won't answer that charge but it does make me realize how challenging it is to convey ideas through this medium...sometimes a simple face-to-face conversation would melt away any confusion or mis-communication...I would prefer that. But I am slowly coming to the realization that sometimes these internet exchanges are exercises in futility.

At any rate, thanks guys. This has been an interesting discussion.

Off Thread ----------------

Tess is capable of answering for herself, of course, but I don't think she was accusing you of anything. As you said, this is a limited medium. The impression I get from the paragraph is that she was sort of musing out loud and trying to sort it all out, not really pointing fingers. Obviously you're free to bow out of the thread if you want to, but please don't do it because of something like that.

[dwashbur]

No one agrees with me. See HSB...we don't always pat each other on the back.

No, but we love you anyway!

[RickJ]

Sally is made righteous when she believes (i.e., when the Spirit brings her to faith).

I agree.

But Sally does not remain "righteous" no matter what she does afterward, would you not agree?

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting Wondergirl:
"You are misunderstanding what has been written in the Bible, especially the Gospel."

Not at all. In fact [U]you're the one[/U ]who's choosing to interpret it incorrectly. And I can show you EXACTLY HOW. It's the word "ALL." You prefer to think that it is LITERALLY everyone who's ever lived. Not so. The word "all" MUST BE CONDITIONED by everything God says in the Bible. For example:
[1]"... the vessels of mercy which He had afore prepared unto glory." Romans 9:23
[2]"Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Romans 9:18
[3]"the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." Romans 9:22

Clearly NOT ALL have been prepared to be saved. Thus NOT ALL sins have been paid for. OR are you saying that God has indeed paid for all sins, BUT some of those He paid for are going to slip out of His hand ? If that is the case, what about John 6:39 ? "...that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing..."

The conclusion is that "all" in reference to salvation must mean "all that were chosen."

[RickJ]

Quoting RickJ:
I can't explain it.

If I didn't know better, I'd say you're evading my point. But you wouldn't do that. Nah ! Would you ? You didn't earn your reputation without knowing how to sidestep a few land mines. I'll bet.

The scriptures I've referred to have a direct bearing on your quote "God, through Christ, helps us to become righteous but it needs our active cooperation."

In case you haven't guessed it, I'm trying to refute your quoted statement. But perhaps I should more carefully analyze it before I endeavor to "take on" such a distinguished personage as yourslf.

As you and most others here know, the definition and life meaning for terms such as justification, righteousness, sanctification, salvation, etc. have been debated for centuries.

Think of 10 good Christians that you know and I bet you'll have many different definitions/explanations among them about these terms... but that's OK.

When we get to heaven, we can spend the first 10,000 enjoying good laughs about how we thought that we were so smart here on earth.

So back to the issue, here is a great explanation from allaboutfollowingjesus.org (bold and italics are mine):

In 1 Corinthians 1:2, the Apostle Paul describes the relationship between positional sanctification and progressive sanctification, "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…" Christians are both "sanctified in Christ Jesus" and "called to be holy." The Greek words for "sanctified" and "holy" are from the same root word. A Christian is holy and called to be holy at the same time.

That, by the way is not a Catholic website, but the Catholics believe the same thing... which is why the earlier author that I quoted used the phrase term "active participation".

It's why, also, we can say that we are Saved, are being Saved, and will be Saved.

We are talking about Gifts from God. We can accept them, but then we must use them. After accepting them, we can misuse them or discard them.

[classyT]

Tess is capable of answering for herself, of course, but I don't think she was accusing you of anything. As you said, this is a limited medium. The impression I get from the paragraph is that she was sort of musing out loud and trying to sort it all out, not really pointing fingers. Obviously you're free to bow out of the thread if you want to, but please don't do it because of something like that.

Oh Jake, I wouldn't have hurt you for a million trillion years! Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying. Dave thinks we are saying the same thing. I didn't think we argeed on S&A. I will go back and look. I was so tired when I got on and wrote that.. I was really thinking out loud. I think you are brilliant in the word. OH gosh I just feel terrible.

[RickJ]

Quoting Wondergirl:
"You are misunderstanding what has been written in the Bible, especially the Gospel."

Not at all. In fact [U]you're the one[/U ]who's choosing to interpret it incorrectly. And I can show you EXACTLY HOW. It's the word "ALL." You prefer to think that it is LITERALLY everyone who's ever lived. Not so. The word "all" MUST BE CONDITIONED by everything God says in the Bible. For example:
[1]"...the vessels of mercy which He had afore prepared unto glory." Romans 9:23
[2]"Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Romans 9:18
[3]"the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." Romans 9:22

Clearly NOT ALL have been prepared to be saved. Thus NOT ALL sins have been paid for. OR are you saying that God has indeed paid for all sins, BUT some of those He paid for are going to slip out of His hand ? If that is the case, what about John 6:39 ? "...that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing..."

The conclusion is that "all" in reference to salvation must mean "all that were chosen."

So then how would you explain 1 Timothy 2?

1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting RickJ:
"So then how would you explain 1 Timothy 2?"

May I point out that you are making the classic error I have already indicated. You're assuming that the
"all" of verse 1 has the identical application of the "alls" that refer to salvation. And as I have endeavored to demonstrate, THAT CANNOT BE THE CASE.

I don't know how else to say it at the moment. CLEARLY NOT ALL have been pre-destined to be saved. And God is not bound by some rules of writing to use the word all in a consistent way in every paragraph. The context of salvation is very special and should not be lumped together with praying for the worldly good of all men.