[gromitt82]

In last Sunday's Gospel (Lk 18: 9-14) we found another instance of what I was wondering a few days ago about the dependability and strength of our faith.
We can see here the typical Pharisee, fully convinced of his own virtuousness and merit just because he is “not like other people, grasping, crooked, adulterous, or even like this tax collector� standing next to him. In addition, expecting nothing but the adequate reward he deemed fully deserved.
On the other hand, the tax collector did not even dare to lift his eyes to heaven while he kept saying “O God, be merciful to me, a sinner�
I cannot help but paralleling our present western societies with these two persons.
Moreover, I can imagine many of us reacting very much like that Pharisee. We are not crooked (not much, in any case); we are not adulterous or disloyal (not much, in any case); we are not greedy (not much, in any case); on top of everything, we attend the Sunday Eucharist (Catholics) or Services (Protestants) and, every now and then, we may even give to an indigent some small alms.
Bearing all that in mind, we should be accepted amongst the chosen ones to the Kingdom of God…, just in case it does exist at all, should not we?
Meanwhile, where do we stand regarding the “love thy neighbor� Commandment? Possibly the one we are less willing to fulfill because, most of the time, it implies renouncing and relinquishing to our deepest beliefs and to what we consider our undisputable rights...
Within a few days our Pope Benedict XVI will be visiting our city of Barcelona for the consecration and blessing of the famous Temple of the Holy Family.
(check: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qboXXLCAJQ4J:www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/spain/barcelona/sagrada/sagrada.html+the+temple+of+the+holy+family+in+barc elona&cd=2&hl=es&ct=clnk)

The Pope will only spend a few hours here on his way to Santiago de Compostela, where he must attend the closing of the Holy Year. Both events are certainly important for the R.C.Church but the expenditure involved is rather extraordinary. The archdioceses estimate it to be around 2 million dollars, without bearing in mind the expenses the City Halls and the Government will have to sustain for safety and protection in both cities.
Next year he is also to visit Madrid for another important event: the World Youth Day, where 2 million young participants are expected.

This is fine and perhaps quite necessary but, to a certain extent, it reminds me of the Pharisee's approach to God.

We will be submitted to ceremonies and performances that probably are more in the nature of what was to be expected in the Renaissance days, when Kings and Popes used to live in great magnificence and grandeur. However, perhaps not too adequate in the time of crisis we are bearing now, when millions are starving and dying of famine…

Another instance: was it necessary for Michelle Obama to spend more than a quarter of a million dollars (so they say) to spend just a short week in Marbella?

Our economies are choking, national debts are spiraling all over out of control and our authorities are asking us to tighten our belts and share in the sacrifice. But what about them?

Last Sunday the RC Church celebrated the DOMUND (World Mission Day) when the Church demands contributions for the missions all over the World.

Is not it however contradictory and paradoxical to be asking for handouts for the Mission (which do need them) while spending fabulous amounts in actions which are perhaps not as essential as the Missions are.

So I wonder, who is really following the “love thy neighbor� Commandment with iron-strong faith? The humble missionaries nobody knows, who sacrifice their life to help other human beings in need of everything or the Church hierarchy which could very well do without so much outlay?

Perhaps, I am all wrong. And this is why I place the question here.

[dwashbur]

I'd say you've got a pretty good handle on the situation.

[TUT317]

HI gromitt,

No, you have said pretty much how it is.

Regards

Tut

[De Maria]

Am I all wrong?

About what?

Asked by gromitt82 On Oct 26, 2010

In last Sunday’s Gospel (Lk 18: 9-14) we found another instance of what I was wondering a few days ago about the dependability and strength of our faith.
We can see here the typical Pharisee, fully convinced of his own virtuousness and merit just because he is “not like other people, grasping, crooked, adulterous, or even like this tax collector� standing next to him. In addition, expecting nothing but the adequate reward he deemed fully deserved.
On the other hand, the tax collector did not even dare to lift his eyes to heaven while he kept saying “O God, be merciful to me, a sinner�
I cannot help but paralleling our present western societies with these two persons.
Moreover, I can imagine many of us reacting very much like that Pharisee. We are not crooked (not much, in any case); we are not adulterous or disloyal (not much, in any case); we are not greedy (not much, in any case); on top of everything, we attend the Sunday Eucharist (Catholics) or Services (Protestants) and, every now and then, we may even give to an indigent some small alms.
Bearing all that in mind, we should be accepted amongst the chosen ones to the Kingdom of God…, just in case it does exist at all, should not we?
Meanwhile, where do we stand regarding the “love thy neighbor� Commandment? Possibly the one we are less willing to fulfill because, most of the time, it implies renouncing and relinquishing to our deepest beliefs and to what we consider our undisputable rights...
Within a few days our Pope Benedict XVI will be visiting our city of Barcelona for the consecration and blessing of the famous Temple of the Holy Family.
(check: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qboXXLCAJQ4J:www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/spain/barcelona/sagrada/sagrada.html+the+temple+of+the+holy+family+in+barc elona&cd=2&hl=es&ct=clnk)

The Pope will only spend a few hours here on his way to Santiago de Compostela, where he must attend the closing of the Holy Year. Both events are certainly important for the R.C.Church but the expenditure involved is rather extraordinary. The archdioceses estimate it to be around 2 million dollars, without bearing in mind the expenses the City Halls and the Government will have to sustain for safety and protection in both cities.
Next year he is also to visit Madrid for another important event: the World Youth Day, where 2 million young participants are expected.

This is fine and perhaps quite necessary

Indeed, quite necessary. Our first duty is to worship God. Our next duty is to teach others to worship God.

but, to a certain extent, it reminds me of the Pharisee’s approach to God.

The Pharisee you mentioned above erred in not asking for mercy or forgiveness, thus blaspheming the Spirit of God by placing himself in a level equal to God.

\We will be submitted

You are not forced to go. If you submit, it will be voluntarily.

to ceremonies and performances that probably are more in the nature of what was to be expected in the Renaissance days, when Kings and Popes used to live in great magnificence and grandeur. However, perhaps not too adequate in the time of crisis we are bearing now, when millions are starving and dying of famine…

From Scripture:
Matt 26:
[6] And when Jesus was in Bethania, in the house of Simon the leper, [7] There came to him a woman having an alabaster box of precious ointment, and poured it on his head as he was at table. [8] And the disciples seeing it, had indignation, saying: To what purpose is this waste? [9] For this might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. [10] And Jesus knowing it, said to them: Why do you trouble this woman? For she hath wrought a good work upon me.

[11] For the poor you have always with you: but me you have not always.

There is a time for everything in this life. And there is a time to worship God. When we do so, we don't spare any expense. Jesus placed the Pope here to represent Him. That is why he named him, "Rock". A name which previously was used only as a reference to God. Therefore, we spare no expense for the Pope, because when we see him, it is as though we see Jesus:
Matt 10
[40] He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.

Another instance: was it necessary for Michelle Obama to spend more than a quarter of a million dollars (so they say) to spend just a short week in Marbella?

Our economies are choking, national debts are spiraling all over out of control and our authorities are asking us to tighten our belts and share in the sacrifice. But what about them?

Last Sunday the RC Church celebrated the DOMUND (World Mission Day) when the Church demands contributions for the missions all over the World.

Is not it however contradictory and paradoxical to be asking for handouts for the Mission (which do need them) while spending fabulous amounts in actions which are perhaps not as essential as the Missions are.

There is a time to pray and a time to celebrate. A time for peace and a time for war. For everything there is a time.

So I wonder, who is really following the “love thy neighbor� Commandment with iron-strong faith? The humble missionaries nobody knows, who sacrifice their life to help other human beings in need of everything or the Church hierarchy which could very well do without so much outlay?

Perhaps, I am all wrong. And this is why I place the question here.

You are wrong because it is not your job to judge the Church. It is God's job. If the Church is not spending money according to God's will, then those who are in authority over it will be subject to His Justice:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

[gromitt82]

About what?



Indeed, quite necessary. Our first duty is to worship God. Our next duty is to teach others to worship God.



The Pharisee you mentioned above erred in not asking for mercy or forgiveness, thus blaspheming the Spirit of God by placing himself in a level equal to God.



You are not forced to go. If you submit, it will be voluntarily.



From Scripture:
Matt 26:
[6] And when Jesus was in Bethania, in the house of Simon the leper, [7] There came to him a woman having an alabaster box of precious ointment, and poured it on his head as he was at table. [8] And the disciples seeing it, had indignation, saying: To what purpose is this waste? [9] For this might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. [10] And Jesus knowing it, said to them: Why do you trouble this woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

[11] For the poor you have always with you: but me you have not always.

There is a time for everything in this life. And there is a time to worship God. When we do so, we don't spare any expense. Jesus placed the Pope here to represent Him. That is why he named him, "Rock". A name which previously was used only as a reference to God. Therefore, we spare no expense for the Pope, because when we see him, it is as though we see Jesus:
Matt 10
[40] He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me.



There is a time to pray and a time to celebrate. A time for peace and a time for war. For everything there is a time.



You are wrong because it is not your job to judge the Church. It is God's job. If the Church is not spending money according to God's will, then those who are in authority over it will be subject to His Justice:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.

Am I wrong about what I say? Regarding the Pope‘s visit I already said it was fine and perhaps necessary. And it is true our first duty is to worship God, which means to abide by ALL his commandments NOT ONLY by SOME OF THEM. Which we normally DO!
Our next duty is to love our neighbors which means NOT ONLY teaching them to worship God with words BUT ALSO, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, WITH OUR EXAMPLE.
The best education we can give our children is that given by our behavior that we project upon them. The same happens with our neighbors. But if our children and neighbors realize that what we tell them is not what we do, our effort becomes fruitless.
The Pharisee did blaspheme, as you say, and how many of us DO imitate him, right now?

I agree. Nobody individually is forced to go. But we are still submitted as a whole to a ceremony and expenditure that, at present, seems to be out of proportion, especially when there is so much needy all over the world.

You probably have not heard about a Spanish bishop by the name of Peter Casaldaliga.
Born in Barcelona in 1928 he is an emeritus Brazilian Bishop of Sao Felix do Araguaia, in Brazil. He gave up his own diocese in Spain to go to Brazil where he felt he could be of greater help for his native neighbors than in Spain. He started in Brazil in 1968 as a simple missionary and in 1971 he was appointed as Bishop of Sao Felix do Araguaia , in the northern section of the Brazilian rain forest (Matto Grosso). Over decades, he fought against the exploitation by some multinationals of the land and of the indigenous people who live there. His life was threatened several times and his Episcopal Palace was a little bigger than a hut.

He has received numerous awards including in 2006 the International Catalunya Prize (2006). In 2003, I had a chance to visit him, when I decided to accompany the Bishop of Solsona (Catalonia) on a personal visit, because the Vatican had decided that he should definitely retire at 75. On this visit, we had a chance to see the little help he was receiving from the Vatican. In fact, none at all! He was living thanks to the contribution of a few wealthy Brazilian families who somehow contributed to avoid his starving to death. Then, the very indigenous practitioners of his diocese were keeping him well furnished with fruits and other produce of their own land. He has lived that live ever since and he has refused to leave his native friends even he is no longer his bishop. Incidentally, the new bishop has decided to live, if I am not wrong, in Manaos!

This is what I had in mind when I spoke of perhaps unnecessary expenditure.

You must admit, on the other hand, that it is kind of difficult to compare Matthew 26, when Jesus was asking his disciples not to molest that woman, with the style of living Kings and Popes used to bear in the Renaissance days. There is a little difference between an alabaster box of precious ointment and Pope Alexander VI way of life, for one…

Nowhere do the Gospels say that to worship God we have to spare no expense. At least, not in the way you imply. We have to spare no effort, which is slightly different!
Jesus place Peter to represent Him and he did name him Rock. But Jesus said absolutely nothing about “to throw money down the drain”. Besides, the time of maximum splendor for the Vatican ran between mid-16th and 17th centuries, which was also when the European states were run by absolutistic monarchies and princedoms.
Also, what Matthew 10 implies is that receiving Peter is like receiving Jesus! But, again, it does not imply that Peter is to behave like a King. Mind you, I am not criticizing the Pope as Head of the Roman Catholic Church. But I am just stating that this Church is spending too much money in unnecessary ceremonies and displays while, at the same time, speaking of the famine and suffering we are witnessing of all over the world.
Your explanation that for everything there is a time, is somewhat demagogic, if you do not mind my saying so. Michelle Obama might have spent a week in Martha’s Vineyard for a fraction of what she spent in Marbella. I do not think there is a time to go Marbella and a time to go to M.V… Is there? Or a time for peace and a time for war… A few men DECIDE when it is time for war and, consequently, a lot of people die accordingly. The time for peace, incidentally, arrives when one of the parties surrenders or is totally defeated. However, the weaponry industries all over the world are not so keen in having peace lasting for too long. This is, perhaps, why since WWII was over there has not been a full year without some kind of conflict or small war in some part of the world.
I know it is not my job to judge the Church except if the Church is not abiding by what God orders us to do. The Church –representing God – was given the obligation by Jesus to teach us how to gain the access to the Kingdom of God. And this implies preaching by example, which is exactly what the apostles and Saint Paul DID!
I know God will judge them, as He will judge ALL of us. But this does not mean we cannot judge by the Earth standards what we consider wrong NO MATTER who does it.
For instance, the pederasty cases. The Pope has finally agreed that those committing that crime should be subject to the civil justice and pay accordingly. Later on, they will be judged by God.

Finally, Hebrews 13;17 says Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.
And in 13:17, the author adds: Pray for us, for we are confident that we have a clear conscience, wishing to act rightly in every respect.

God bless,
Gromitt82

[dwashbur]

You are wrong because it is not your job to judge the Church.

It has to be SOMEBODY's job, because if somebody doesn't call them to task then abuses can and will run rampant. Were it not for somebody - the reformers - calling "the Church" to task, we would still have sale of indulgences, even greater excesses of wealth than we see today, priests and popes fathering children all over the place with no repercussions, and all the rest. If it's not our job, whose job is it? Blind obedience and acceptance of anything and everything they do is way beyond silly.

[Teddy3indc]

If a problem is recongized, and not mentioned in public, then the recognizer is allowing the actions.

It is not the right of anyone to judge, but to bring up injustice is to do a righteous deed.

[gromitt82]

It has to be SOMEBODY's job, because if somebody doesn't call them to task then abuses can and will run rampant. Were it not for somebody - the reformers - calling "the Church" to task, we would still have sale of indulgences, even greater excesses of wealth than we see today, priests and popes fathering children all over the place with no repercussions, and all the rest. If it's not our job, whose job is it? Blind obedience and acceptance of anything and everything they do is way beyond silly.

Totally in agreement with Dwashbur! Total obedience without the possibility of any analysis is precisely what the sadly famous Inquisition was all about and what, even today, some fundamentalists in the 3 monoteistics religions of our world, are longing to implement in our religious systems. One clear instance of this blind obedience is offered on a daily basis bu the Muslim fundamentalism.
Al-Qaeda's last manifesto in Iraq is evidencing this: "We will open upon them the doors of destruction and rivers of blood", referring, naturally, to all Christians living there.
Last but not least, I do not think that anybody is judging Jesus by his followers behaviour. Who are we to judge our Creator? But we can judge human beings for what they do or think, because as humans we are all prone to err and to interpret in our most convenient way God's Words.
Gromitt82