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gonefishing · Jul 15, 2010, 11:21 AM

I'm told that my shower drain leaks. Do I have to remove the cultured marble shower floor to repair the shower drain?

Hi GF...

What leads someone to tell you the drain leaks? How was this determined? Do you see any leaks?

Also, can you tell me what type of pipes are involved with the drain... PVC, ABS, cast iron, copper, etc..

Let us know more.

Please post your reply to the box at the BOTTOM of the page... not in the comments box... OK? Thanks.

Mark

How do I replace my shower drain in a cultured marble floor (shower on a slab)?

massplumber2008 · Jul 15, 2010, 02:55 PM

Hi GF...

How do you know that it is the shower drain that leaks? How was this determined? Do you see any leaks?

Also, can you tell me what type of pipes are involved with the drain... PVC, ABS, cast iron, copper, etc..

Let us know more...

Please post your reply to the box at the BOTTOM of the page... not in the comments box... OK? Thanks.

Mark

gonefishing · Jul 15, 2010, 04:06 PM

Hi Mark,

And thanks for your interest. Let me take these questions one by one.

(1) What leads someone to tell you the drain leaks?

First, I found water damage under an armoir in the room adjacent to the shower stall/bathroom. I removed the furniture and found mildew on the carpet where the armoir had been. Then I opened a closet door behind this area, and next to the shower/bathroom. Inside the closet (a hot water closet) the concrete floor was wet; but not under nor near the hot weater and its pipes. The shower had been used the night before discovering all this--in a lengthy shower. I called our plumber then.

(2) How was this determined?

Our plumber looked this over, looked at the shower, removed the cover over the shower drain. He showed me the drain under the cover, pointing out a corroded sealing material between the pvc drain and the (iron) plumbing pipe a few inches below.

(3) Do you see any leaks?

I never saw the leak, only the wet concrete in the corner of an adjacent hot water heater and the carpet and furniture water damage next to this closet and also adjacent to the shower stall.

(4) Also, can you tell me what type of pipes are involved with the drain... PVC, ABS, cast iron, copper, etc..

The drain cover and drain is pvc. The drain pipe below that is iron, according to our plumber.

Also, we had an insurance adjuster review the drain and talk with the plumber and he concurred. For my part, I'm not sure personally--I only know what I've been told and what I've seen AFTER THE FACT--after the shower has been used (it dries the next day or two after use).

Thank you,
Mike

massplumber2008 · Jul 15, 2010, 04:55 PM

HI Mike...

I may have a good fix for this... called the WINGTITE shower strainer (see image). Check them out at: WingTite Shower Drain- Replace the Drain, Not the Whole Shower

It allows you to change out the old shower strainer for a new strainer assembly WITHOUT needing access to the drain below the shower unit. Perfect for slab job shower strainer issues... ;)

Let us know if you or your plumber need more info...

Mark

speedball1 · Jul 15, 2010, 05:20 PM

I'm a Florida plumber and most of our showers are on slabs. Unless this is a add on your shower floor has been recessed a few inches into the pour. For a bad drain to fill the dap-out and spill over hasn't happened in all of the hundreds my company installed.
If this were my call I'd give a close look at where the shower stream hits when you're inside before I went to the expense of tearing into the drain and the tile floor.'
What happens is that over time the grout shrinks and loosens up allowing water to leak down behind the tile. Is the water that you see anywhere near the spot the stream hits?
Just thought I'd give you another option. Good luck, Tom

Milo Dolezal · Jul 15, 2010, 05:52 PM

My 2 cents: Let your "plumber" go. Get second / third opinion. He is not giving you good advice. Seems to me he is creating a nice job for himself.

Thank You... Milo

gonefishing · Jul 15, 2010, 09:10 PM

Dear Mark, Tom and Milo,

Thank you very much for such prompt and helpful advice. I'm going over all this with my "better half," and we're definitely slowing down on proceeding with this plumber we've had out here. I'll look over the shower more closely myself and see if I can find any clues on where exactly the water is leaking--perhaps somewhere near the joints between the marble floor and walls.

I also reviewed the wingtite website and called their "help desk." If the leak is in fact at the drain--there's every reason to hope a wingtite kit can be a good and far less expensive solution.

As for the original evaluation from my plumber (that the iron drain pipe is rusted away and too short too begin with), I took the drain cover off. A couple of hours ago, I scraped the old gasket away (something he didn't do). I can clearly see the iron drain pipe edges where it comes up into the pvc drain now. And I scraped away the gunk down below in the iron drain pipe (along the edges). It looked like about a 1/4" of brown dirt along the pipe's inner surface. AND I don't see how the water even flows much through the pipe, it's filled along the edges with so much of the is brown dirt, or gunk. I scraped about 10" down into the iron pipe and some of the this dirt fell down farther. The water never drained quickly--and now, having run some water into it--it really is slow and backs up for a long time.

Finally, I never noticed any cracked or broken surfaces as I scraped the inside of the iron pipe with my long screwdriver. Hopefully, the drain pipe is NOT too short (as I was told originally) AND hopefully, it is NOT rusted away--at least, I can't seem to find any thin, brittle areas on the pipe wall.

Could I have a slow drain that just backs up, and the slow standing water just seeps through old sealant (20 years old) along the base of the marble floor and walls (hasn't been recaulked/sealed since late 80's)? Did I ruin the drain removing the black rubber gasket below the drain cover? If so, can I replace the rubber gasket--or will I need the wingtite kit and have to replace the whole drain assembly?

Thanks again--this is a big help, and a lot of fun for me! Now that I'm 52, I think I'm beginning to really like trying to solve plumbing issues--this is catching!

Kind Regards,
Mike

speedball1 · Jul 16, 2010, 06:11 AM

You're focusing on the drain and it doesn't sound like the drain to me.
Pleas go back and answer my questions. Is your shower base set ON the slab or IN the slab?
I still think you have a leak where the stream hits the tile. Cheers, Tom

gonefishing · Jul 16, 2010, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by speedball1

You're focusing on the drain and it doesn't sound like the drain to me.
Pleas go back and answer my questions. Is your shower base set ON the slab or IN the slab?
I still think you have a leak where the stream hits the tile. Cheers, Tom

Good Morning Tom,

And thank you for your time and help.

I see your point, sorry to have missed it entirely.

I don't know the difference between the two, "on" or "in" in the slab.

When I go in the shower, all I see from above is the cultured marble floor.

Now that I've removed the drain cover and black rubber-like gasket (at the bottom of the white plastic/pvc drain) that covered and surrounded the top of the (iron? So I was told by my plumber) drain pipe--I still can't see the slab. When I look down, I only see the (1) top edge of the drain pipe; (2) surrounding white plastic/pvc drain "assmbly"; (3) and marble floor.

I don't know how to see the slab nor what exactly I'm looking for.

Is one method of installation ("m looking for.

Is one method of installation (") slab--where the marble rests directly on the slab? And the other method where the shower is embedded above the slab on some type of material to "float") slab--where the marble rests directly on the slab? And the other method where the shower is embedded above the slab on some type of material to "The shower may have been floated on a bed of sand, a lot of them did that back then."

Without finding a way to peek under the marble, I don't know how to tell more (this is a single story home with no crawl space).

I can add the marble shower floor is raised an inch or almost 2 inches above the bathroom tile floor--there's a slight step up going into it from the bathroom floor. Maybe this indicates its " it? If so, perhaps something the plumber who briefly looked at, remarked to me (although he saw only what I saw--but I'm sure he was a whole lot smarter than I am in this area, and should presumably know what to look for?), " the slab, and not "

Without finding a way to peek under the marble, I don't know how to tell more (this is a single story home with no crawl space).

I can add the marble shower floor is raised an inch or almost 2 inches above the bathroom tile floor--there's a slight step up going into it from the bathroom floor. Maybe this indicates its " it (since it's raised)? I don't know--this is a totally uninformed guess.

Any help you might have is greatly appreciated.

Kind Regards,
Mike

speedball1 · Jul 16, 2010, 07:05 AM

I don't know the difference between the two, "on" or "in" in the slab

Most of our showers are on slabs. Unless this is a add on your shower floor has been recessed a few inches into the pour. If the shower was installed when the house was built then your shower is recessed in the slab and I have a real problem believing the drain is the source of the leak.
At one time the old drain has been replaced with a No-Caulk PVC drain.
I was around when cast iron was used and we installed a metal drain with a lead and oakum lead caulked joint. I wonder why!
Is the water leak on the same side that the shower stream hits? Let me know, Tom

gonefishing · Jul 16, 2010, 07:30 AM

Hi Tom,

I've been told by a former owner that the shower is original and I have no reason to doubt it. I'll do some more checking to be sure and let you know if its othewise.

I don't know where the water leaks.

Maybe I could take some heavy duty duct tape and tape the drain closed (I suppose the stuff is waterproof). I could run an inch or two of water in it and see if the water leaks out. This would tell me if there's a leak around the seems of the marble floor and walls, wouldn't it?

I don't know how to determine exactly where the water is leaking from. Perhaps, by process of elimination, I could isolate it?

Maybe going from this to a test of pouring water into the drain directly, but not letting it touch edges of the floor/walls for several minutes -- to see if its not the floor and not the drain--then perhaps some other area?

I forgot to mention--the marble walls and floor include a built in marble seat . The water stream seems to hit both one of the floor seams and sometimes, the seat. I wonder if it could be leaking along an edge of the marble seat, where it meets the wall.

Also, I learned from my wife last night, that my 80 year old Mom ( a great gal and cancer survivor, still going strong!) and who lives with us, has been using the shower for about a year and told my wife that she uses the hot and cold handles as supports to pull up on and as supports when stepping in and out of the shower. I guess I'll need to ask how to drill a hole and install a hand rail in an cultured marble shower wall. But first, the leak--I wonder if she's loosened the fitting around the hot or cold handles and water is seeping in there (seems like it would take a lot of water to seep down the wall and run about 3 or 4 feet on the concrete slab to the adjacent carpet area that was ruined?).

Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike

speedball1 · Jul 16, 2010, 08:15 AM

I've been told by a former owner that the shower is original

The shower may be original but the drain isn't. We didn't install PVC NO-Caulk drains over a cast iron stub up back then. We installed a metal drain with a lead and oakum joint.

First, I found water damage under an armoir in the room adjacent to the shower stall/

Please answer this! Is the room you found the water in next to the tile wall the shower stream hits?

my 80 year old Mom ( a great gal and cancer survivor, still going strong!) and who lives with us, has been using the shower for about a year and told my wife that she uses the hot and cold handles as supports to pull up on and as supports when stepping in and out of the shower.

If you can move the face plate then you must tighten 6then two screws on then plate, If you can't move nit it's most likely OK.
Tell Mom I'm 83 and have survived three cancers since 1993. There's no doubt in my mind that you have a replacement drain. I just wonder why it was replaced in the first place. Regards, Tom

gonefishing · Jul 16, 2010, 09:03 AM

Dear Tom and Everyone,

The water leak was discovered on the floor of two rooms beside or next to, the side of the shower wall (cultured marble shower wall).

These two room are not behind the area where the shower stream hits. They are beside it, or next to the long side wall in of the shower/bathroom.

It may be important to note that most of this area where the water leak was discovered is lower than the floor of the rest of the house. This bedroom was converted from a garage 20 years before and there is a 2 inch (or so) drop in the floor height, between this bedroom (where the water leak was found) and the rest of the house (where the shower/bathroom is located). I'm just guessing here, but maybe the water ran down--seeking the lowest point?

As for the possible leak source being the facet covers or the shower head, I see no drip or water leak signs around them, and the "face plate" on each is tight against the wall with no wiggle or movement.

Tom, you wrote, "Tell Mom I'm 83 and have survived three cancers since 1993." I'll sure tell her. And it will encourage her. We celebrated her 80th this last Sunday--she wanted mexican food, chocolate cake AND chocolate fudge pie; and before turning in that night--she had a sprite and sherbet "float," to top it off! And she only weighs 110 lbs! She's a go - getter, for sure! And I appreciate your encouraging words which I will pass along. Congratulations to you sir and let me add, you serve as an example to all of us! Thank you!

Also, Tom--you have got me to wondering the same thing, which I never considered until I read your last post. "There's no doubt in my mind that you have a replacement drain. I just wonder why it was replaced in the first place." Now, I wonder also. It doesn't seem like folks do this kind of thing just for kicks! Must have been some sort of issue, and I wonder if that original issue could be related to this problem.

Do I need to buy a rubber gasket to put over the drain assembly to replace the one I pulled and scraped out of it yesterday (I didn't get quite all the white, rubbery type of material--silicone?--from between the iron drain pipe and the pvc drain assembly). I wonder if the drain works now, at least as well as yesterday. This morning I ran some water, and it drained slowly--backing up about 2" in the shower floor. There is no sign of water leak next to the shower. Maybe it went away :-) or maybe I just didn't run the water long enough to cause a leak.

Kindest Regards,
Mike

speedball1 · Jul 17, 2010, 01:57 PM

You say you have (cultured marble shower walls. Does water collect on your bench?
It might be worth your time to cut a square patch out of the wall that you seem water seeping out of. If you see moisture any higher then the shower floor that would tend to eliminate the drain and put the focus on faulty caul.
Unless you can nail down the source of the leak you're flying blind and so is your plumber.
What you're getting from him is guesses. I'm amazed he hasn't went after the source before this.

On a more personal note tell your mom that if she wishes to keep on chugging to stay active. Both in mind and body. Go mall walking every AM with a group. Exercise and heap that plate.
No setting in front of the TV from wake up to bedtime. That's just another way of saying, " I give up"
If your plumber won't get off his duff and locate the source you do it. Open walls,( save the patch. You can tape and reinstall it) and let me know if you find moisture coming down inside the wall.
Good luck, Tom

Milo Dolezal · Jul 17, 2010, 06:01 PM

Please, snap few photos of your shower base and post it. There is too much confusion in identifying type of installation.

newbee2 · Jul 18, 2010, 05:02 AM

Hi Gonefishing! I am not the person to advice about plumbing, but about supports for your mother when getting in an out of the shower, there are these "super grips from Ideaworks" with suction gauges that can be installed in a minute for about $20. I bought a set at Costco, but I've seen them also in Target.