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    JDOP's Avatar
    JDOP Posts: 94, Reputation: 7
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    #1

    Dec 14, 2006, 08:13 AM
    False hope
    As the title suggests. I wanted to started a discussion about giving or receiving false hope when dumping or being dumped. Personally, I think this is the worst you can do to a person you don't want to be with anymore; When breaking up, dumpers often say "innocent" things, like in my case: "never say never", "we will see", "I don't exclude the possibility of us getting back together". From the outside, these things may seem clear enough, i.e. it is over. But for the dumpee things like that are a reason not to let go. They only want to hear the things they like and can't see the reality behind these words. Everybody knows that, because everybody has been dumped before; Why is it so hard for the dumpers to give a crystal clear message. If you want to be left alone, just say: "leave me alone". Why can't many of them do that?
    Desperate4answer's Avatar
    Desperate4answer Posts: 2, Reputation: -1
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    #2

    Dec 14, 2006, 08:27 AM
    Men are too gutless to express any emotion, or to be straightforward with what they want...
    NJCUTIE77's Avatar
    NJCUTIE77 Posts: 48, Reputation: 6
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    #3

    Dec 14, 2006, 08:27 AM
    Well... I am recently going through a "break" with my boyfriend. You could read my post... I mean the situation is different... he's mentally ill and I think that has a major role to play in this "break"... but... In my case, we talked about things and he says, "I think we need a break"... well at that I got upset and started leaving... and then he got upset asking me why can't I compromise and that's not what he meant... So, I was like, "what does a break mean then".. and he tells me that he needs a month to sort things out and then I ask him if he wants me to wait and he says yes... so I tell him that I don't know if I can do that... then he's crying hugging me... blah blah.. it's very weird situation in my case, but I advise you to read the post that I have up... it says, "Please Help.. Nead Advice BAD" and give me your perspective... but I still have all of his stuff that he tells me to "hold on to" and he has mine so go figure.. So, what I'm saying is that maybe in some instances there isn't so much false hope... Most of the time if someone breaks, they don't give a limit as to how much time they need... u know... I don't know lol
    Geoffersonairplane's Avatar
    Geoffersonairplane Posts: 1,195, Reputation: 286
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    #4

    Dec 14, 2006, 08:34 AM
    Hi JDOP,

    Well my ex said this line

    What my ex said in addition to all sorts of other absurd things.
    "I just think we should leave it FOR A WHILE" which I felt was false hope and a message possibly geared towards this interpretation I had at the time.

    My interpretation of what she said: "well, if it does not work out with what I am doing now, I can keep you as a safety pocket, I can clearly see you are upset and love me so I can keep you on the backburner"

    Sometimes I think the dumper feels guilty and may want to give you false hope in order to avoid them seeing you upset and then feeling more guilty about what they have done. It can also suggest partly that they want to keep you on a string in case they realize that the decision they made was a wrong one thereby covering all possible angles.

    It's nothing less than game playing. I believe the dumper should just be honest and give it to the dumpee as it is otherwise it just prolongs the agony.
    Julie25's Avatar
    Julie25 Posts: 37, Reputation: 5
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    #5

    Dec 14, 2006, 08:37 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Desperate4answer
    Men are too gutless to express any emotion, or to be straightforward with what they want.......
    Yep I agree. :) I know that all to well.
    NJCUTIE77's Avatar
    NJCUTIE77 Posts: 48, Reputation: 6
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    #6

    Dec 14, 2006, 08:47 AM
    I aggree... I think that whoever is doing the dumping should just outright do it... I guess unless it's a different situation... I'm not one for breaks, but a friend of mine took about 4 breaks with her boyfriend. She's married to him now, but they would break up, and get back, break up and get back which I think is very unhealthy for any relationship... but apparently the last time they broke up and went back, I guess he "didn't know what he had until it's gone"... Breaking up is hard to do.. believe me... but I think it somewhat depends on the situation... Do dumpers actually miss who they dumped as much as the dumpee misses them?
    JDOP's Avatar
    JDOP Posts: 94, Reputation: 7
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    #7

    Dec 14, 2006, 08:50 AM
    The week after my ex broke up with me she called me a few times, probably only to make sure I hadn't killed myself or something. Of course during these conversations I asked what the deal was. In other words, I ASKED, even begged for hope. From her point of view, it wasn't hard to see that giving me false hope wasn't doing any good for me. Yet she still did it, even though she was already more "clear" about the break up than before.
    valinors_sorrow's Avatar
    valinors_sorrow Posts: 2,927, Reputation: 653
    I regard all beings mostly by their consciousness and little else
     
    #8

    Dec 14, 2006, 08:55 AM
    I think, at least here in the US, that we have slowly been growing less and less honest overall. About all sorts of things. And as a result, conversely proportioned, all sorts of problems have increased as a result. Not just personal relationship problems.

    For me, nothing is as powerful as truth. And so I seek to cultivate it in myself and suggest others do the same. Today, I have to practice a lot of what I call "emotional aikido" to work around the people who are so emotionally dishonest or in denial and it takes some doing to do that. So I cultivate discernment and step carefully in these dishonest and insincere times.

    The culture of denial, like a person's denial, will rack up enough bad stuff eventually to crash itself. In the meantime, what I know is those who see see and those who understand understand. You have tapped something here that I think it quite common-- I have lost more than one friend to that kind of cowadice. Some kindness is not kind at all except maybe to themselves?

    An easy tool of discernment I know to offer is what I learned helping addicted people (some of the most cunningly dishonest people on earth!)-- watch how what they say matches, or not, their actions and then trust the actions only when there is a discrepancy.

    As for break ups, I would suggest everyone come to understand this -- the minute they say they want out in any manner (break, break up, etc) they no longer have your best interests in mind. That is what that announcement is about. Ergo, do not trust much of what follows. They are now free to do some really crappy stuff to you because they aren't going to be in your future where you can hold them accountable for their actions and they know it. So I suggest that you simply hold the door for them, if you must do something.

    Very very good topic JDOP -- my thanks to you!
    Geoffersonairplane's Avatar
    Geoffersonairplane Posts: 1,195, Reputation: 286
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    #9

    Dec 14, 2006, 09:04 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by valinors_sorrow
    As for break ups, I would suggest everyone come to understand this -- the minute they say they want out in any manner (break, break up, etc) they no longer have your best interests in mind. That is what that announcement is about. Ergo, do not trust much of what follows. Simply hold the door for them, if you must do something.
    Exactly, this is when they begin to become the person you never thought they would be or were given the amount of time you knew them.
    NJCUTIE77's Avatar
    NJCUTIE77 Posts: 48, Reputation: 6
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    #10

    Dec 14, 2006, 09:06 AM
    I totally agree with everything that you said regarding truth... I am a big one on trust.. You can't love if you don't trust... and once my trust is broken, I can not hold the relationship... I think a lot of people (especially those addicted like you mentioned val) have a hard problem speaking truth and I think a lot of that comes from insecurity issues. My boyfriend or whatever you want to call it has BIG insecurity issues mostly which come from his bipolar and OCD issues... I grew up in a very nice and wealthy area of NJ... when we first met, he told me he was the manager of a restaurant... later to find out he was only delivering for a restaurant... He lied because of self image and insecurity.. thinking that I wouldn't date him if he didn't have a "great" job or something... He was also raised in a family where they sugar coated a lot of things and I basically tell it like it is... which is another problem because he would disguise things so he wouldn't hurt someone's feelings... I think fibbing and omitting things is not being honest as well... Recently he told someone that he was the "soon to be owner" of the place he has been working at for about 8 months... once again Lies based on insecurity...
    In my situation, I don't think that he was giving me false hope... I think he's just confused about everything due to his issues.
    valinors_sorrow's Avatar
    valinors_sorrow Posts: 2,927, Reputation: 653
    I regard all beings mostly by their consciousness and little else
     
    #11

    Dec 14, 2006, 09:41 AM
    Geoffersonairplane agrees: At the point of a break-up, I believe all trust then goes out of the window... Is that right to think that way?
    Well I wouldn't be quite so black and white about it but yes, essentially. Now here is where I think it gets really confused. You still love them but you don't trust them. Big dilemma!

    This culture does a really really bad job at teaching us about love, in my humble opinion. It falsely proposes that you must trust someone in order to love them. (Looks at NJCutie to make sure she isn't keeling over in her chair here LOL). I love a great many people who are simply too ill to be trustworthy. Mental illness does that. Addiction does that. Dishonesty does that. Etc, etc, etc! (strikes a "King & I" pose now LOL) I come from a whole family rife with what I call the "thousand nameless mental illnesses" (actually some of it has names but I want to skip getting into that and let this be more universal) and so that is how I learned this.

    Its okay to love them, just don't trust them quite so much. Its rather like compassion for the stranger -- which is a kind of love without a lot of trust, when you stop and think about it.

    In NJCutie's case, I can fully appreciate that there is so much illusion going on with him that there simply isn't much to have a real relationship with! I know that arrangement really well. In that case I distance myself with love -- in other words, I let go with no bitterness, maybe a little sadness that it is how it is but that's all.
    NJCUTIE77's Avatar
    NJCUTIE77 Posts: 48, Reputation: 6
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    #12

    Dec 14, 2006, 10:30 AM
    To answer Val... (in which my real name is Val by the way lol), I think that when you have an intimate relationship with someone trust is important... But I guess I see your point.. You could still love someone without trusting them, but I think in most cases, when the trust is taken out of the relationship, the relationship is no more...

    I don't really understand what you mean by, "so much illusion going on with him"... do you mean that he is very sick? I'm confused lol... I studied up a lot on his illnesses... I also think that my situation characterizes some Borderline Personality as well... but I was there through everything. I accepted him and his illness... I found him a psychiatrist. He takes meds, but not constantly... like forgets one day and doesn't take them at the exact times. I know he can't handle stress because with other stressful situations he has "wanted a break".. I guess this last one was the icing on the cake. I keep hoping that he will realize what I was to him... there aren't too many people like me left around... He should be lucky... This is why part of me doesn't think this is "false hope"... and everyone is different I guess..
    valinors_sorrow's Avatar
    valinors_sorrow Posts: 2,927, Reputation: 653
    I regard all beings mostly by their consciousness and little else
     
    #13

    Dec 14, 2006, 10:56 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by NJCUTIE77
    To answer Val...(in which my real name is Val by the way lol), I think that when you have an intimate relationship with someone trust is important... But I guess I see your point.. You could still love someone without trusting them, but I think in most cases, when the trust is taken out of the relationship, the relationship is no more....

    I don't really understand what you mean by, "so much illusion going on with him"... do you mean that he is very sick? I'm confused lol.... I studied up a lot on his illnesses... I also think that my situation characterizes some Borderline Personality as well... but I was there through everything. I accepted him and his illness... I found him a psychiatrist. He takes meds, but not constantly... like forgets one day and doesn't take them at the exact times. I know he can't handle stress bc with other stressful situations he has "wanted a break".. I guess this last one was the icing on the cake. I keep hoping that he will realize what I was to him ... there aren't too many people like me left around... He should be lucky... This is why part of me doesn't think this is "false hope"... and everyone is different I guess..
    Hi Val LOL
    I guarantee you that when trust is taken out of the relationship, it limits the relationship by how much is taken out. In your case, I see very little trust and rightly so-- he sounds simply too ill to be trusted, sadly. My condolences for your loss.

    What I meant by illusion is that mental illness makes it so that the person lives pretty much in their own little version of reality, which doesn't match reality out here. I don't like to call those who are constitutionally incapable of being honest LIARS. I prefer to speak of them being disillusioned. It means I need to understand that its not that they wouldn't tell the truth, it's that they couldn't.

    I have found that although that makes almost no difference in how I deal with someone who is not truthful, it does make a difference in how I feel about them. And I will admit, sometimes I have not been able to tell which it is -- couldn't or wouldn't. This is why I found how to deal with either case in a way that I am comfortable with. To go where I have gone, to come from where I came from, I had to find those sorts of things. Had to in order to survive and remain a healthy person.
    NJCUTIE77's Avatar
    NJCUTIE77 Posts: 48, Reputation: 6
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    #14

    Dec 14, 2006, 11:48 AM
    It is in fact very hard for me to come to terms with losing him over this... If you read my previous posts on this board you would know that "THIS" is... It was almost like he blamed me for things and whenever there was stressful situations during our almost 3 years together, he would put the blame on me which I never really understood. I am a very mentally stable and healthy person... For about 95% of the relationship, this man showed me in many ways his love... however, there were just all those issues with him involved... He was never a very open communicator and I think that is also a large part of the problem. I accepted him for what it was... I had very close relationships with his family and put my heart on my sleeve for this guy. There is a connection that I have with him that I just can't explain... When things would go wrong, I would just say to myself, "it's the illness"... "that's not really him".. and I know what you all are probably going to say... "that IS him though"... and I guess part of me just can't come to terms with that just yet... This whole thing is pretty fresh. I have been in other long term relationships, but nothing as intense as this and yes, I know I'm still young... I am right now doing the NC thing because I love him... I am a very very compassionate person with a good heart and part of me thinks that he will come to terms and realize that because I don't know too many other people like me... and for the false hope thing, I just don't think he would give me a time limit and say the things he said... it's just hard to believe that he would end 2 1/2 years over something like this... but then again this is where I also think everything comes into place with the OCD and whatever else.. the constant thinking process... I know that I will need to be in contact with him again... He owes me money and he knows it... I helped him financially when he had a mania... and he only had part of the money the night we spoke about "the break"... so I told him when he had the full amount I wanted it in cash...
    ordinaryguy's Avatar
    ordinaryguy Posts: 1,790, Reputation: 596
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    #15

    Dec 14, 2006, 12:27 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by JDOP
    Why is it so hard for the dumpers to give a crystal clear message. If you want to be left alone, just say: "leave me alone". Why can't many of them do that?
    Four reasons I can think of offhand:

    1. Guilt
    2. Ambivalence
    3. Cowardice
    4. Confusion

    I'm sure there are others, but some combination of these would cover most cases, I think.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,328, Reputation: 10855
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    #16

    Dec 14, 2006, 10:33 PM
    It would be so great if people were that honest, and you know where you stand, and what they mean, but they are not. My early experiences taught me one thing to always know ME and TRUST ME, It really doesn't matter what others do, because you have no control over them, but I will always know what I'm about. I've never invested my whole being on someone I didn't know very well and never will(anymore). I will never build my life around another, or depend on them to make me happy. That's my responsibility. Even as an old married guy, those rules have never changed, so it doesn't matter, if you are responsible to yourself, what others do,
    JDOP's Avatar
    JDOP Posts: 94, Reputation: 7
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    #17

    Dec 15, 2006, 01:53 AM
    I think sometimes the dumpers also give false hope because they don't want to exclude the possibility of coming back together completely. In other words they want a safety net. Or maybe they think (as in my case and geoff's) that it isn't working out now, but that it's not impossible to work out in the future. The difference for the dumper and the dumpee is that the dumpee interpretes this as a short term certainty while the dumper interpretes this as a (very) long term possibility. I think I truly understand the meaning of the words "never say never" and "we'll see" now. You can't exclude anything in this world. But you can't count on winning the lottery.
    Makiavelic76's Avatar
    Makiavelic76 Posts: 96, Reputation: 14
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    #18

    Dec 15, 2006, 02:55 AM
    Quote from NJCUTTIE77:
    I am a very very compassionate person with a good heart and part of me thinks that he will come to terms and realize that because I don't know too many other people like me...

    There's other people like you :)... but maybe we have to understand 2 things:

    1) Why we need to feel that recognition from people that might not be able to do that (for any illness reason or emotional incapability)

    2) Why we get involved with them?

    Just wondering
    NJCUTIE77's Avatar
    NJCUTIE77 Posts: 48, Reputation: 6
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    #19

    Dec 15, 2006, 06:53 AM
    To Answer Makiavelic76... I say that quote for a few reasons... Firstly, my boyfriend (ex) whatever you want to call it now, is very sick... Most women and I say most want a man who will be able to provide for them, take care of them, who is financially and mentally stable... It's sad to say, but that's how the world is... However, you can't help who you fall in love with. When I met this guy, he was charming, but he was very insecure... never was able to feel his emotions, had a lot of negativity about worldly things that he would say affected his personal life, and lied about things out of being insecure. I loved him so that when he did get sick, all I cared about was having him get well... My friends would tell me that they were worried about me... that they were afraid in the long run this was going to be a life struggle for me... and what would happen if he got sick again and couldn't work and went through all the money... where would that leave me... and if I had kids that would be worse... and what about my kids... they could have the chance of being mentally ill as well... I would think about this, but was so in love that it didn't matter... I felt our relationship was strong enough... After telling my story to some people, I would usually get the responses of, "why were you with someone like that", "I know other girls that would find out a man is very mentally ill and run for the hills", "he's too sick for you, you need someone stronger"... and not for nothing, but it's true... Being with a mentally ill man is very very hard, but I took the bad with the good I guess... and stuck with it... Other girlfriends he has had have left him because of the OCD... he still doesn't think he's bipolar... so they didn't even know about that, but they all left... I stayed and I think it takes someone strong and compassionate to do that... that's why I said what I said... He is VERY sick.
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    Makiavelic76 Posts: 96, Reputation: 14
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    #20

    Dec 15, 2006, 08:45 AM
    Allow me to congratule you NJCUTIE77, it takes a special spirit to have that kind of love and also great human values to be as worthy as you are, considering our actual society.

    Sincerely, :)

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