[Mario3]

I think the whole reason is money and we support them because there will be economic gains for us in the end... after all one of Hitlers biggest supporters was the catholic church. Everyone should see this free online movie and you will be very changed Zeitgeist - The Movie, 2007 it's zeitgest the movie and you should see all of it and pay attention. The start of it is dumb but it gets great after 20 minutes and it will make you see the light.

[BABRAM]

Why does the USA support Israel? What do we as a county gain from supporting them, when the negatives are so obvious and numerous? Is it political, moral, financial, romantic? Why is the existence of a Jewish homeland still important to America?

Because outside of Israel there are about six million plus Jews in the U.S. and I'm one of them. Read the words to the Shema and then Hatikvah. :)

[ETWolverine]

I think one of the reasons Israel is supported so profoundly by America is because there is a proxy-war going on between America and Iran. While America supplies weapons to Israel, for example, Iran supplies them to Lebanon. This results in both Israel and Lebanon going to war, but one with the support and interests of two other stronger nations.

I think there is an error of cause-and-effect here, Oracle. (BTW, did you know that your screen name is that of two comic book characters? Oracle is the former Batgirl of DC Comics, and Ororo Monroe is the real name of Storm from the X-Men of Marvel Comics fame.)

Israel isn't at war with Lebanon because we suplied them weapons. We are supplying them with weapons because they are at war with Lebanon and the rest of the Middle Eastern Islamic countries. And the USA's support of Israel predates any connection we had with Iran. So I question your premise.

There is also a very influential Jewish community in America that continuously lobbies the American government for Israeli support. And at the end of the day, one does answer to the pay cheque.

True enough. But please keep in mind that the Jewish community in the USA is roughly 1% of the total population, compared with about 13% for the Hispanic community. So I wonder how much of a pay cheque the Jewish community weilds as compared to other groups.

The homeland is not only for Jews; my Grandfather and relatives are Jewish and they acknowledge that Israel is dear to Christians and Muslims, all of whom have great respect for the Jewish religion of which they've branched from. The people who do not have respect for this land, or any other land on this earth, are wolves disguising themselves as sheep.

Notice the difference between Jewish control over the Temple Mount and Muslim control over the Temple Mount. Before 1967, the Muslims controlled the Temple Mount, and the only ones allowed there were Muslims, despite the fact that it was Judaism's holiest site. After 1967's Six Day War, the Jewish population took control of East Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount and opened it up to everyone; Jewish, Christian Muslim and any other religious belief (or disbelief).

By contrast, in the city of Nablus in the West Bank, Jews controlled the site of Joseph's Tomb from 1948 (and earlier) until 1995, when the city was turned over to the Palestinians for autonomy. When the current Intafada broke out in 2000, the Tomb, the Yeshiva that sat next to it were destroyed. It was repaired shortly thereafter, but destroyed again in 2003, and repaired again. The site was painted green, which is the color of Islam, but after a world outcry, it was finally repainted a neutral color. Since 2000, no Jews have been permitted to visit the shrine. A group of Breslov Chassidim visited the shrine anyway in May 2007 to pray, but were fired at by Palestinians, and were forced to pray under gunfire.

This is the difference between how Jews treat holy sites of other religions and how Muslims treat holy sites of other religions.

God, I believe, is not racist or prejudice. God, I think, does not necessarily feel that the land of Israel is superior than the First Nation lands like America or Canada… to think otherwise is a process of taking religion out of a spiritual realm and to put it into a material one (or to at least interpret religion in this fashion). But, when governments start supporting some lands over others with obscene amounts of money or political favours, the reasons should be vigorously examined; for this may not be God’s will, but man’s will.

Which is why I do not believe that Israel should be supported by the USA for any religious reason. The reason for the USA to support Israel is because Israel is an ally that has given the USA as much as it has gotten from the USA. As I mentioned in my earlierst post in this string, Israel is a staunch ally, and America's best friend in the region. What I wrote was this:

In the UN, only two members have consistently voted the same way as the USA on almost every topic. The two members? One is Micronesia. The other is Israel.

Then there is the fact that Israel's intelligence network has supplied the USA with important information it has needed to keep this country safe and stop its enemies.

How about the fact that Israel trades openly with the USA for all sorts of goods and products from fresh food to electronics to automobiles to grey goods. That computer you are using... about half the parts and about half the programming were developed in Israel for Microsoft or other companies.

How about intergovernmental military assistance? Israel's elite fighting units regularly trains with the USA's elite fighting units. We cross-train our fighter pilots. We cross-train our security and anti-terrorist agencies. Israel grants the USA its only truly safe harbor for US naval vessels in the entire Middle East.

How about their sharing of Medical technology and other scientific breakthroughs. Israel is the world leader on prosthetic technology (a product of bombs always going off around them, I guess). They have gladly and openly shared this technology not just with the USA, but with all countries. They are also the worlds leaders in the development of agrarian technology... development of better farming methods and technologies. This they also share with the world.

Then there's the whole Democracy thing. We are supporters of democracy. Israel is one of perhaps 3 democracies in the Middle East right now, and the others are shakey. We should be supporting the only fully developed democracy in the Middle East.

And how about the fact that we OWE Israel big time for holding off on responding to attacks by Saddam Hussein in 1991 so that we could maintain the coalition against Iraq in the first Gulf War. Israel took a big hit at our request. No other country in the world has ever taken that many hits from a declared enemy as a favor for a friend. Israel did it because WE asked them to. And we have asked them to hold off on responding to other provocations by their enemies as well since then (and before as well). We owe them for that. They did us a favor... a bunch of them actually. You don't turn your back on that sort of favor.

I do believe that this has more to do with economics and political ends than it does with respecting a nation which Jews, Christians, and Muslims love dearly and regard as a holy land.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Why shouldn't the USA support a country that is an economic and political ally? Why wouldn't that be a legitimate reason to support an ally?

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

In regards to your claims about how Jewish people treat holy sites versus how Muslims treat holy sites; I’m not sure if you are aware of this, but Arabs are a minority of Muslims in the Muslim world. In fact, the biggest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia. So I am a bit uncomfortable with you insinuating that Muslims treat holy sites poorly. There is a great difference from one Muslim country to the next. For example, in Sudan (black Muslims), women don’t really cover their hair. Another example is Iran (Persian Muslims), where women are university professors and more women go to school than men. Then there is Afghanistan (I’m not sure what they are but they are not Arabs) where a woman was not even permitted to wear lipstick!

The Taliban's destruction of millennia-old Buddhist landmarks;
Al Qaeda's bombing of one of Shia Islam's holiest shrines in Samarra, Iraq;
Hamas's attack on the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem,
Iran's destruction of the BaHai holy site of the grave of Quruun,
destruction of holy sites in Gaza by Hamas terrorists,
Destruction Monastery of SS Cosma and Damian at Zociste (holy sites of the Serbian Orthodox Church) by Albanian Muslims,
destruction of Ayodhya, Mathura and Kashi (Hindu holy sites) by Muslim invaders during the Middle Ages, etc.

I could go on and on. The fact is that the deliberate targeting, desecrration and descruction of other religions' holy sites by Muslims is a typical tactic of theirs, and it is widespread, not just among Arab Muslims.

If anyone is treating a holy site poorly, they are not Muslim. I have given this example before: the Jewish buses in Israel (only the Orthodox buses that are owned by the Orthodox Jews) make women sit at the back of the bus and have beaten women for trying to sit at the front (where it is a man’s place). Does this mean that Jews treat women poorly? You can research this fact on the BBC, and CBC news (both publicly funded, not privately owned, news stations in England and Canada).

I've been on those busses. First of all, there is a curtain sepparating men from women. Second, the curtain runs down the LENGTH of the bus, so that one side is for women and the other side for men... not front and back. Third, there has never been violence in this regard. If a woman wants to sit in the mens' section, the men will generally get off the bus. Fourth, these are private busses, not public. The private owners can set up their busses however they want and seat passengers wherever they want. So it is hardly like the black/white segregation of public busses in the early half of the 20th century. Fifth, the bus only has segregated seating when the men are praying, which means during morning rush-hour times. The rest of the time, the busses are fairly open. So the entire depiction by these news stories incorrect.

My grandfather is Jewish and I can assure you that NO, a real Jewish person would never do that to a woman.

Being an Orthodox Jew myself, I would tend to agree.

Keeping this in mine, a real Muslim would never disrespect a holy site. Those are just people; evil people pretending to be Muslim,

But a widespread activity, nonetheless.

I think then, if you are going to compare religion and say that one is being brutal while the other one is not, you were going down a dangerous path and not being entirely fair.

I disagree.

I don’t want those orthodox Jews and the cases of the buses to be representative of what Jewish people are like; it’s an insult to my heritage.

Actually, if I were to believe the way those busses were portrayed to the public by the media, I'd be insulted too. But I know better. The story was a terrible misrepresentation of the facts. Unlike the historical actions of Muslims toward other religions' shrines, which is widespread and repetitive behavior.

And the example you presented is an insult to peaceful Muslims (the real ones), who are the brothers of Jews. If people can only “see” this and separate the REAL GOOD from the REAL BAD, instead of making us think that this is only a “Muslim” versus “Jewish” problem, then we would actually get somewhere.

I agree. So where are the REAL GOOD Muslims, and why aren't they decrying and standing up to the REAL BAD Muslims? There are plenty of Jews who stand up to Israeli leaders who they disagree with and do so with gusto. Why is there no similar action coming from those Muslims who disagree with radical Islamist leaders?

Let us not forget the Crusades, where we were taught to think that the reason why Christians butchered Jews had to do with “Christians” and “Jews”…when we can see today that, no, those people who committed those crimes are plain evil and this isn’t, underneath it all, about two religions.

Here I disagree completely. If the Crusades and Inquisitions had been performed by gangs of individuals, then I might agree. But they were perpetrated by the Church acting as the leadership of Christianity, with the aid of Kings and Queens and their Knights under their Divine Authority with the specific intent to target Muslims and Jews, in reaction for the Muslim attacks against Europe in an attempt to conquer the world and make it Muslim. And the Jews got caught in the middle, being found "guilty" by both sides for not belonging to eithe religion. Historically speaking, it was about the three religions, and the actions of all parties were religiously driven. So I have to disagree with you on this point.

In regards to your questions about economics being our primary reason why we support Israel; the importance of this would have to do with morals and values. I say you are somewhat right Wolverine; it can somewhat be moral to support a nation for economic reasons, but “only” if you admit this and do not make this seem as though it’s a story about “the good versus the evil”.

Has anyone in the government stated that our support of Israel is about good vs. evil? If they have, I neve heard it, and I tend to keep up with what people in positions of authority say about Israel. Can you give me an example of someone saying this?

Elliot

[Dark_crow]

I agree. So where are the REAL GOOD Muslims, and why aren't they decrying and standing up to the REAL BAD Muslims?
Elliot

Because unlike civilized people, they kill dissenters.

[ScottGem]

Comments on this postMario3 disagrees: no they did not turn the desert into a productive land through hard work. It was done through the water supply they keep going to lebanon for through wars. Why are you so brainwashed to not have said that?

Excuse me? I AM brainwashed? Where do you get that garbage? First, the settlements that the jews built in the deserts of Israel were done BEFORE there were any wars. These settlements were started in early 1900s and continued until the second world war. There were built on hard work and gambling on modern agricultural advances. As for going to Lebanon for water?? Who has been feeding you this? You don't farm by stealing water from another country. That's one of the most ridiculous things I have EVER heard. There is no way you can steal enough water to make that successful.

And Mario, giving someone a negative comment should ONLY be done if their post was factually incorrect. Not if your opinion differs. What is worse here is you gave my answer a negative comment based on garbage that is not historical fact nor does it make any sense. Based on this and other things you have posted, I can see that YOU have been badly brainwashed by some communistic/socialistic society.

[tomder55]

OK here's my problem .when I first joined Askme I did not know I could disable option on e-mail notifications . I first answered this post on page # 5 posting #41 This one is post #190 and every response since my first has generated an email notification

How do I disable it for a question in progress.

BTW . Congratulations this debate has been ongoing since Dec 2006 .

[ETWolverine]

ok here's my problem .when I first joined Askme I did not know I could disable option on e-mail notifications . I first answered this post on page # 5 posting #41 This one is post #190 and every response since my first has generated an email notification

How do I disable it for a question in progress.

BTW . Congratulations this debate has been ongoing since Dec 2006 .

This may help:

Go into your profile.

On the left side menu, there should be an option for "subscribed questions". Choose "List Subscriptions".

There should be a check-box for "Notification" on the right side of each question you have subscribed to. Make sure that it is UNCHECKED for all questions. You may need to go though each page to take them off individually for all the posts in this question. Tedious, but not TOO bad.

Hope it works.

Elliot

[Dark_crow]

Wolverine,

This is where you are wrong I think. They have portrayed it as good versus evil. I will give you an example of how we have been misled cleverly, and then tracks have been covered by politicians saying, “well I never said it, now did I?” Shame.

Here is an analogy: 9/11 and Iraq were continuously juxtaposed until people assumed in their heads that the two were intrinsically linked, if not the same. The 2001 anthrax threats (which have mysteriously gone out of the picture…odd because all facts point towards this being homegrown terrorists…) have also been juxtaposed with 9/11 until people started to believe that Middle-Easterners must have been the cause. So, to ask me to provide you with evidence of the “exact words that describe the Israel-Palestinian conflict as good and evil” is somewhat, forgive me for this, juvenile (not that you are juvenile as a person, but I am saying what was said or asked for was).

I can list a million despicable things that the Orthodox Jews and Christians have done too, taking into mind that you have insinuated that the disgraceful things Muslims have done are “telltale signs”. The following I am deeply sad to list because I adore Jews (being of this heritage) and Christians (being of this heritage due to my step-mother) I am not fully sure of this and have not researched this, but my Grandfather tells me, and a Jewish professor of religion I knew, that Jewish Orthodox men still say in some of their prayers “Thank you God for not making me a woman”. Christians burned women for being witches, Christians continue to believe that women are not as important as men (straight from the former Pope’s mouth: John Paul). What about the 65-page report on Israeli war crimes violating the Geneva conventions that Israel doesn’t even recognize (again, you can research this outside the American media, like on the BBC which covered this). Christians have a high rate in molesting children in the house of God…to the point that some less educated people just think it’s a ‘priest thing’; how awful. What about the ethnic cleaning of thousands of Palestinians by Jews in Deir Yassin? What about the relatively recent and absurdly disproportionate measure Israel took against the south of Lebanon; demolishing it? There are also many manipulative facts out there like, “how the current Pope was a former Nazi”. This fact, although irrelevant because he’s not a Nazi now, could be used one day to shun Christians. And yes those buses are privately owned, but they function within Israeli law, which also allows torture in their jails.

Oh yes, those buses do make women move to the back, so you must be talking about an entirely different bus when you say that you have been on some that only divide men and women down a straight line…I wasn’t aware that those existed in addiction to the ones the news is covering, so thank you for bringing that to my attention…I guess we both learned something from each other.

Those Jewish buses make women go straight to the back and have beaten women who don’t obey. Here are some links showing that indeed women have to go sit at the back, and men get to sit at the front…I wonder why many Americans are not aware of this and other countries around the world have covered this:
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel's 'modesty buses' draw fire
Women fight ultra-Orthodox bus ban | The Australian
Bus Beating Puts Orthodox Women on Online Alert

Religion is suppose to bring people together, so we should stop empowering those who use it to divide and make us believe that it is “inherently” bad, and start to get together as “good” brothers; whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim. Please never insinuate that any religion is bad, especially when it is so close to our own Jewish one.

I don’t buy it one bit…to have us fight and cause bloodshed does not benefit the average religious person, so who does it benefit? This isn’t benefiting the average man, so who is benefiting?

Your whole post is a testimony to the failure of Religion.

[tomder55]

Thanks Elliot fortunately that was the only question with the issue.

[ScottGem]

ok here's my problem .when I first joined Askme I did not know I could disable option on e-mail notifications . I first answered this post on page # 5 posting #41 This one is post #190 and every response since my first has generated an email notification

How do I disable it for a question in progress.

BTW . Congratulations this debate has been ongoing since Dec 2006 .

You just need to unsubscribe to the questions you no longer want to get notification for. There is an unsubscribe link in the e-mail notification or you can do it from the profile.