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robodoc · Dec 2, 2006, 12:13 AM

Hi. I am currently working on the electrical portion of my basement remodel and wanted some input on my circuits. For starters I have 200 amp service and plenty of room in my box, so space is not a concern. I am planning on having a rec room, utility room, laundry room, bathroom, and wet bar. The furnace, hot water heater, softener, sump, and well pump are already taken care of. Laundry room: 20 amp circuit for washer and gas dryer. 20 amp circuit for upright fridge and separate upright deep freezer. 20 amp circuit for bathroom(overhead light, vanity light, shower light, and fan). 15 amp for general lighting, rec room can lights on 1 dimmer, bar lights on 1 dimmer, craft area lights on switch, other general lights on 1 dimmer. 15 amp circuit for general outlets around the room. 15 amp circuit for outlets in craft area(sewing, embroidery, and surger machines as well as other craft items... wifes area). Bar area... unsure, need advice... planning on having wine cooler, eventual keg cooler, microwave, popcorn popper. 15 or 20 amp circuit for entertainment... receiver/surround, dvd/vcr, 32 inch plasma, and overhead projector for movies. Over kill on the circuits or not enough? I also plan on having a model train that runs through the bar and circles the room. A little on my background, I install automated systems in plants so I have some experience in panel wiring, VFD's, 480, and extensive electrical troubleshooting. Thanks for any help. This site has already helped me a ton.

tkrussell · Dec 2, 2006, 05:14 AM

Everything you listed for the wife's area is fine, when I saw you say bar area, I thought you were going to say "husbands area".

I certainly can help out with the bar, Johnnie Walker Black on the rocks please, and leave the bottle.

May want a separate circuit for each wine cooler and eventual keg cooler. They may fit on one circuit depending on the amp draw, but why take a chance.

Then use:
1- 20 Amp circuit for microwave
1- 20 Amp circuit for popcorn popper

1- maybe two 20 Amp circuits for 20 amp circuit for entertainment... receiver/surround, dvd/vcr, 32 inch plasma, and overhead projector.
Consider using good surge protectors for all this A/V equipment. Either power strip type, they even make surge protector receptacles, they are usually blue.

And a circuit for the model train.

Be sure to use all two wire to all critical equipment, in other words don't use any 3 wire circuits using a shared neutral. Any break in the neutral due to a loose connection or a broken splice may damage equipment.

Any general purpose outlets within six foot of the bar sink need GFI, but not for any refrigeration units.

There you go, and I will leave the empty bottle.

robodoc · Dec 2, 2006, 09:03 AM

Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for. I have not seen the blue surge protected outlets before, just the orange isolated circuit outlets. I will look for those the next time I am out. I always run 2 wire circuits, it was how I was taught and how I continue to do it. Leaning a little on the anal side, I don't mind a little extra wire use or cost to make it look nice or be above standard. Learned from my industry experience that a little extra work not will save a lot of headache later, and no matter how done you think you are on a job, someday you might be back. I had my butt burnt from that one early on and learned a good lesson. Walker Black noted, and if my design works right, the train will deliver shots to the movie area. Thanks again.

labman · Dec 2, 2006, 10:32 AM

Been poking about electrical supplies a lot lately looking for cheap, easy, legal ways to connect in a generator. I noticed whole house surge protectors that you connect into your breaker box. One thing I like about them is that they are right where the problem is likely to come in. Additional ones at the point of use can't hurt either.

And count me among those not liking shared neutrals.

robodoc · Dec 2, 2006, 04:21 PM

Speaking of breakers, would it be wise to install GFCI breakers in all of the outlet circuits or should I just protect individual outlets or pigtails? What about AF breakers?

tkrussell · Dec 2, 2006, 04:38 PM

I think the outlets are more conveinient, they do the same job, and cost less.

Not sure what you mean by pigtails.

AF protection is only needed for bedrooms.

For those who are serious about surge protection because of critical equipment should use a whole house TVSS at the panel, and at the device or appliance that needs the protection using either the popular power strip style, or the receptacle itself type.

The receptacle style is carried at supply houses and distributors.

robodoc · Dec 2, 2006, 09:17 PM

Sorry about the lack of clarification, by pigtail, I meant runs after a GFCI that are protected by the GFCI. For instance, I am planning on having my main bathroom light non-GFCI, but the vanity and shower light after the GFCI outlet so they are protected. That way if the GFCI trips I won't be left in the dark.

robodoc · Dec 30, 2006, 09:15 PM

I am now just getting around to pulling wire for my project. My job often has me out of town so my home projects always take a little longer. Looking at the bar, I am going to be running about 5 separate circuits just to that area, wine cooler, keg cooler, PC popper, micro, and general outlets. Would I be better installing a remote breaker box behind the bar with a single home run back to the main panel? If so, what would I want to rate the main panel breaker at, and what gauge wire should I run it with? I do have the room in my main panel to run 220v to the bar panel if desired.

tkrussell · Dec 31, 2006, 06:30 AM

This is a good idea, run one larger cable in place of several smaller cables, say maybe #8-3 w/g cable for a 40 amp sub , or #6-3 w/g cable for a 50 amp sub, however to size this panel/feeder without guessing I would need to know the nameplate amp or watts rating of each appliance.

Many of the appliances will be on at the same time, plus need a bit of capacity for motors starting and future use.

robodoc · Jan 7, 2007, 10:21 AM

Looking into some of the appliances, the wine cooler plate claims 130w. The popcorn poppers that I have been looking at range from 1150-1420w. The microwave is 950w and I will use the wine cooler to estimate about 130w for future keg cooler. For the general outlets I can see running a blender on occasion, maybe a deep fryer, possibly a bar computer to use at an electronic juke box. I will probably need the 50amp sub? I assume this will be a 220v 50amp run since I don't think I have ever seen a 120v feed to a sub panel. Thanks again.

tkrussell · Jan 7, 2007, 11:16 AM

50 Amp subpanel is a good size. Will need some #6-3 Romex with ground, and perhaps a 12 -18 circuit Main Lug Only panel.

robodoc · Jan 8, 2007, 11:59 AM

Looking at the Square D catalog, the QO11224L125G seems to be what I would need. My other boxes are QO series and I would like to keep them all the same. Any other suggestions?

tkrussell · Jan 8, 2007, 01:12 PM

No other suggestions, the QO frame is fine, esp if you already have one.

robodoc · Jan 10, 2007, 07:18 PM

I have done a bit of searching and have seen some specifications for mounting the main service panel for a house, as far as location, clearances and such. What I didn't see was spec's for a sub panel. Specifically I want to know if I can mount my sub panel in the wall, but below the bar level on that wall. This would put the panel bottom about 30" off the basement floor. Is there a height requirement for sub panels in a basement? How about a spec for mounting it under a counter surface(i.e. bar)? Thanks.

tkrussell · Jan 10, 2007, 08:14 PM

You can install the panel below the counter, just keep the front clear 30 in wide in front of the panel, and arrange it so no water can leak or spill onto the panel.