[inhisservice]

A discussion called "IS the 'Church' the same as the 'Roman Catholic Church'?" was quite abruptly terminated which I feel is unfair and the discussion remains incomplete. So does the 'Church' mentioned in the Bible refer to the RCC.

[JoeT777]

Yes, the word 'Church' mentioned in the Bible refers to what is called the 'Catholic' today. The word Church means a single building, the body of faithful, as well as a universal 'Church'. All these meanings are clearly implied in Scripture. The universal Church referred to in Scripture is the infant pilgrim Roman Catholic Church.

I'll go a step further; those same Holy Scriptures referenced are a special case of Holy Tradition (the word of mouth teachings of the Apostles – fulfilling Christ's commission to baptize and teach God's Kingdom (Cf. Matt 28:17 sqq .) which is the Roman Catholic Church. Had she not been faithful to Christ's commission to teach, you wouldn't have a bible today.

Many don't like it, but it's that simple.

JoeT

[paraclete]

A discussion called "IS the 'Church' the same as the 'Roman Catholic Church'?" was quite abruptly terminated which I feel is unfair and the discussion remains incomplete. So does the 'Church' mentioned in the Bible refer to the RCC.

The Church started in the Bible is not the same as the RCC today. The RCC has absorbed a lot from the cultures it has come into contact with. It's structure is a reflection of the Roman state of the fourth century, not the culture of first century Judea or Antioch. Jesus Christ obviously didn't intend there should be a hierarchical structure that is why he had 12 apostles and he rebuked the apostles when he was asked who was the greatest or leader. Jesus Christ is the leader of the Church, the head of every man.

Just saying it doesn't make it so but the RCC would have us believe it is the premier expression of Christian thought, infalliable in its view. If you want to study this subject read the book Pagan Christianity

[paraclete]

Joe you know very well a Biblical Church is not a building but a group of people so stop with the false teaching. I have never heard of the infant pilgrim roman catholic church and it certainly isn't mentioned in Scripture so it must be a figment of your imagination.

As to tradition remember Jesus said it is by your traditions you nullify the word of God and that wasn't an instruction as to how to do so. This thread is obviously as screwed up as the last one

[adam7gur]

The church mentioned in the bible has to do with people who are true worshipers of the Lord. People who worship in Spirit and in Truth. The dialogue between Jesus and the Samaritan woman is very helpful in my opinion. So to me it is not about the RCC or any other denomination. It is about true worshipers, it is about people, it is about living stones. Remember hoe Solomon's Temple was built. It was not built in one place.Parts of the Temple were made in different places by different people and when time came, those parts were brought to Jerusalem and the pieces were joined together without a hammers sound being heard, and the Temple of the Lord was ready!
Today the parts of the Living Temple of God are being prepared in many different places/denominations... We the living stones will be called to present ourselves so that the Living Temple of the Lord, the Church, the ekklesia, shall be completed and the glory of the Lord shall dwell inside us!

[JoeT777]

The Church started in the Bible is not the same as the RCC today.

Then what does it refer to? How did your Church come to be from 2,000 years ago?

the RCC has absorbed a lot from the cultures it has come into contact with. It's structure is a reflection of the Roman state of the fourth century, not the culture of first century Judea or Antioch.

How does the custom or culture of ‘Church’ affect the Truth a Church holds? Just so you don’t get confused, I make a distinction between Apostolic Tradition and customs/culture.

Jesus Christ obviously didn't intend there should be a hierarchical structure that is why he had 12 apostles and he rebuked the apostles when he was asked who was the greatest or leader. Jesus Christ is the leader of the Church, the head of every man.

So he rebuked the Apostles? What distinction does this make? Teachers ‘rebuke’ their students all the time, how else do they lean?

Just saying it doesn't make it so but the RCC would have us believe it is the premier expression of Christian thought, infallible in its view.

In matters of faith and morals, yes I would have you believe that it is ‘the premier expression’ of Christian Truth and infallible in its teachings.


JoeT

[JoeT777]

Joe you know very well a Biblical Church is not a building but a group of people so stop with the false teaching. I have never heard of the infant pilgrim roman catholic church and it certainly isn't mentioned in Scripture so it must be a figment of your imagination.

Is it a figment of my imagination? Why is it still here after 2,000 years?

As to tradition remember Jesus said it is by your traditions you nullify the word of God and that wasn't an instruction as to how to do so. This thread is obviously as screwed up as the last one

How then do we read scripture that says that we are to keep the traditions of the Apostles? “Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle. “(2 Thes 2:15)

Yes, by all means, keep the word of God, every letter of it. Hold fast the ‘traditions’ you have learned from the Apostles, which is what the Magisterium of the Catholic Church does.


JoeT

[JoeT777]

The church mentioned in the bible has to do with people who are true worshipers of the Lord. People who worship in Spirit and in Truth.

In your estimation, does the Catholic Church fit your definition, why or why not?

The dialogue between Jesus and the Samaritan woman is very helpful in my opinion. So to me it is not about the RCC or any other denomination. It is about true worshipers, it is about people, it is about living stones.

How many 'true' Churches are there? How do you know which is 'true' and which isn't? Or is all truth relative. That is to say, is your truth is as good as another truth? But, God's truth is absolute, it is the Will of God, so how do you support your answer and yet still see God's truth?

Remember hoe Solomon's Temple was built. It was not built in one place. Parts of the Temple were made in different places by different people and when time came, those parts were brought to Jerusalem and the pieces were joined together without a hammers sound being heard, and the Temple of the Lord was ready!

Am I to understand that you think 'Church' is a quiet place?

Today the parts of the Living Temple of God are being prepared in many different places/denominations... We the living stones will be called to present ourselves so that the Living Temple of the Lord, the Church, the ekklesia, shall be completed and the glory of the Lord shall dwell inside us!

I don't understand how does this fit with the OP.


JoeT

[paraclete]

I don’t understand how does this fit with the OP.


JoeT

I think that is the point Joe you don't understand that what is important is our relationship with Jesus, not which door we walk in. People who have to reassure others they are in the true church have missed the point. There is no perfect church

[JoeT777]

I think that is the point Joe you don't understand that what is important is our relationship with Jesus, not which door we walk in.

It doesn't matter which Church we walk into? Do you mean to imply that one Church is as good as another? Then we can say the Catholic Church is in every way, at the very least, 'equal' to your Church?

[450donn]

It doesn't matter which Church we walk into. Do you mean to imply that one Church is as good as another? Then we can say the Catholic Church is in every way, at the very least, 'equal' to your Church?

No one except you and Fred have even made that sort of outlandish claims. So what is your point?
As long as a church teaches the complete word of God as found in the Bible then YES they are as good as your beloved RCC.

That is the whole point. The RCC was NOT nor has it EVER been the one and only church. You cannot prove that the RCC was started any earlier than what 3-400 AD? That is more than 300 years after Christs crucifixion and long after Peter and the rest of the disciples deaths at the hands of who? THE ROMAN'S! Is that not the first case of how your religious originators treated people who did not follow their beliefs? Let's face the facts and move on. YOU HAVE NO PROOF that the RCC is the first or only true religion. I will admit that it is likely one of the oldest established religion on earth today following Christs teachings. However you are attempting to skew it into the realm of cult status with your outlandish claims. I for one am really sick and tired of your lies and half truth's and getting away with it. It is apparent to everyone that you and Fred are protected by the moderators. That is one of the reasons that there are not many true Christians left on the board. The moderators have banned many and others like me have simply given up and quit. No matter how much we complain about the insults you have hurled at us recently nothing happens. Wonder why?
I really doubt that this post will stay up for long as the truth hurts some people too much but since this is probably my last comments****

[JoeT777]

There was only one and only one Church prefigured in prophecy. If one was needing 'proof,' this alone should be convincing. We don't just have the empty air of words, we have a prophecy realized in Christ. Constituted by Christ, organized by the Apostles as a Divine and perfect society, one which is necessary as a means of salvation, a church that is visible to the world with both jurisdiction and principle authority, a Church with a universal Magisterium, and one commissioned by Christ is the One True Church of the Messiah.

This is why we say; "Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”, that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted. “This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic […]. This Church, constituted and organized in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him”. (Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church, William Cardinal Levada, July 2007.)

In the Old Testament prophecy there is a conjoined and parallel prophecy of the Messiah and Christ's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God; the Catholic Church. This prophecy cannot be separated from Christ. To do so denies His prophetic Messianic mission. Divine Prophecy foreshadows Christ establishment of a Kingdom which will reign over the world regenerating Israel. This prophecy requires Christ's personal presence bestowing a the keys to new Church with a specific sacrificial system in his role as Messiah (Psalm 109:4). Its tenets will be based on Divine revelation as her high priest (Isaiah 66:18; Jeremiah 33:20). And her government will originate from the Messiah as its prophet (Malachi 1:11). According to prophecy the new Church will be supernaturally revealed by Christ.

The prophetic image in the Old Testament is that the Messianic Kingdom will be universal; not only for the twelve Hebrew Tribes but also for the Gentiles. Allegiance will be given to the Son of David. (Cf. Psalm 21:28 sq.; 2:7-12; 116:1; Zechariah 9:10) "It shall come to pass in the last days (i.e. in the Messianic Era) . . . that many nations shall say: Come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways and we will walk in his paths; for the law shall go forth out of Sion, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem" (Micah 4:1-2; cf. Isaiah 2:2; Zechariah 8:3). In addition the prophecies for the new Church include a unity of worship, “And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters [the Gospels] shall go out from Jerusalem: half of them to the east sea, and half of them to the last sea: they shall be in summer and in winter. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day there shall be one Lord, and his name shall be one.” (Zechariah 14:8) And I've presented her the very same Scripture that Paul, no doubt, read throughout the Mediterranean to doubting Jewish communities; it contains the same certitude as the prophecy of the Messiah. Do we ignore it for our own subjective 'Church'?

If I can show from Old Testament Scriptures how the One and only One True Church is foretold as being the established here on earth, then how does the claim that a plethora of Churches constitute ONE CHURCH, ONE FAITH, ONE SPIRIT IN CHRIST? Or how does the claim of One Man equals One Church find any validity?

The prophets of the Old Testament were told of a New Kingdom, a New Covent, to be consecrated by Christ for the salvation of the faithful with a particular sacrificial system having an authority emanating from the Messiah. Failing this understanding fails to see Christ's prophetic role as the Messiah therein denying God's revelation. The point is that it is this Church that was consecrated by the Divine to be Holy.

There is but One True Church of Jesus Christ.

JoeT

[paraclete]

It doesn’t matter which Church we walk into? Do you mean to imply that one Church is as good as another? Then we can say the Catholic Church is in every way, at the very least, ‘equal’ to your Church?

Joe you didn't listen to what I said so I'll say it again in a different way. It doesn't matter which door you walk into, what matters is whether you know the owner of the house. It isn't a question of churches being equal, it is a question of personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you don't have that, no amount of being in a church will do anything for you, irrespective of which church it is. We are not saved by our church affiliation but by our acknowledgement of Jesus Christ. So for me I am not concerned about whether the church I attend is the "true" church since all churches are of the view they are the true church or at least part of it. What I must be concerned about is I am faithfull to the teachings of Jesus Christ and that is concerned with how I relate to God and treat others

[JoeT777]

Joe you didn't listen to what I said so I'll say it again in a different way. It doesn't matter which door you walk into, what matters is whether you know the owner of the house. It isn't a question of churches being equal; it is a question of personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

You’re absolutely right; before you enter a house you should know the owner is Christ. That’s why I’m Catholic. All other houses are under different management.

JoeT

[paraclete]

You’re absolutely right; before you enter a house you should know the owner is Christ. That’s why I’m Catholic. All other houses are under different management.

JoeT

Various events over the years might lead me to suggest your claim is invalid and, in fact, the RCC is under different management, and your suggestion that other Christian churches are not under the management of Christ is offensive and certainly incorrect. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, Joe, unless it is at pedophile priests and clergy

[JoeT777]

Various events over the years might lead me to suggest your claim is invalid and, in fact, the RCC is under different management, and your suggestion that other Christian churches are not under the management of Christ is offensive and certainly incorrect. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, Joe, unless it is at pedophile priests and clergy

I wouldn't suggest throwing stones, paraclete. Unless it is at a pedophile Evangelist minister, 'otherbrand' ministers, preachers, etc. - better judgment prevents me from posting a few links - but maybe you would be wise to look around a bit to see just how transparent and brittle the glass is in your house. You might surprise yourself.

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

The True Church is the one in the hearts of believers. Only God knows exactly who those believers are. Their identity is going to surprise us. Membership in a particular church or no membership in a church has nothing to do with membership in the True Church.

[inhisservice]

adam7gur

Good point man. Keep it up. God Bless you.

[paraclete]

I wouldn't suggest throwing stones, paraclete. Unless it is at a pedophile Evangelist minister, 'otherbrand' ministers, preachers, etc. - better judgment prevents me from posting a few links - but maybe you would be wise to look around a bit to see just how transparent and brittle the glass is in your house. You might surprise yourself.

JoeT

Unless your "Church" would immediately remove a senior pastor from office and cancel their credentials at the accusation of improprietary you have no case to put here. That is the standard used in the Church I attend. I don't suggest that it is not possible for anyone to fall, but should they do so, not protected but out on their ear. So much for those who bring the Church into disrepute. That was a foul ball, next ball, shall we do the Crusades or the Inquisition or perhaps a jewish pogrom or two?

[inhisservice]

JoeT777

There was only one and only one Church prefigured in prophecy. If one was needing ‘proof,’ this alone should be convincing.

You are still just repeating what you have said. How do you know that the "one and only true Church prophesied" is the RCC? You are evading this question from the beginning.

We don’t just have the empty air of words, we have a prophecy realized in Christ. Constituted by Christ, organized by the Apostles as a Divine and perfect society, one which is necessary as a means of salvation, a church that is visible to the world with both jurisdiction and principle authority, a Church with a universal Magisterium, and one commissioned by Christ is the One True Church of the Messiah.

There is no prophesy claiming the true Church to be the RC. That is lie number one. The Apostles did not establish the RC and that is lie number two. If you don't want your claims to be called a lie then back it up with evidence from scripture.

This is why we say; "Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”, that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted. “This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic […]. This Church, constituted and organized in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him”.

Quote the Bible friend. Let's have some quotes from the word of God.

In the Old Testament prophecy there is a conjoined and parallel prophecy of the Messiah and Christ's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God; the Catholic Church.

There is that empty claim again.

This prophecy cannot be separated from Christ. To do so denies His prophetic Messianic mission. Divine Prophecy foreshadows Christ establishment of a Kingdom which will reign over the world regenerating Israel. This prophecy requires Christ’s personal presence bestowing a the keys to new Church with a specific sacrificial system in his role as Messiah (Psalm 109:4). Its tenets will be based on Divine revelation as her high priest (Isaiah 66:18; Jeremiah 33:20). And her government will originate from the Messiah as its prophet (Malachi 1:11). According to prophecy the new Church will be supernaturally revealed by Christ.

This is everything about the new Church. Nothing in here to support that the "new Church" is the RC.

"The prophetic image in the Old Testament is that....Do we ignore it for our own subjective ‘Church’? "

In this paragraph too as the previous one no support.

If I can show from Old Testament Scriptures how the One and only One True Church is foretold as being the established here on earth, then how does the claim that a plethora of Churches constitute ONE CHURCH, ONE FAITH, ONE SPIRIT IN CHRIST? Or how does the claim of One Man equals One Church find any validity?

You just do not understand that a Church does not refer to a denomination but a group of believers. You do not seem to understand the meaning of the word "Church".

The prophets of the Old Testament were told of a New Kingdom, a New Covent, to be consecrated by Christ for the salvation of the faithful with a particular sacrificial system having an authority emanating from the Messiah. Failing this understanding fails to see Christ’s prophetic role as the Messiah therein denying God’s revelation. The point is that it is this Church that was consecrated by the Divine to be Holy.

There is but One True Church of Jesus Christ.

True but is that one true Church of Jesus Christ the RC? That is what you have failed to answer.

You’re absolutely right; before you enter a house you should know the owner is Christ. That’s why I’m Catholic. All other houses are under different management.

I could say that the RC is the one that has a different management. You are the one who is making this kind of insulting statements and not any of us. If you don't stop such kind of talk then the moderators will terminate this post also.