[excon]

Hello:

The Democrats are soooo good, that they BEGAN the health care debate with a compromise, then they compromised the compromised, and then compromised it again. Then president Leiberman weighed in, and they compromised it some more.

Now, they've got 2,000 something pages that does nothing but award the insurance companies... Way to go, Republicans... All you had to do was sit on the sidelines, throw out a few choice words now and then, like death panel, and watch the Democrats self destruct, which they promptly did.

As I suggested earlier, the Dem's failure is a Sarah Palin victory. Even if they pass this empty bill, they will go down in flames in 2010 and flamier in 2012.

Let me also project, that since Obama has NOT ended the practice of torture, no matter WHAT he said, if you thought you saw us do bad stuff under the dufus, just wait till Sarah Baracuda takes charge.

excon

[tomder55]

Yeah Howard Dean is pretty steamed.
Still waiting to hear that secret agreement from the gang of 10 . We know they made an agreement because they said they did... but they didn't bother to tell anyone what the deal is.

And if the Dems don't have 60 votes then Olympia Snowe has said she won't be the 60th .If they do have 60 then she will vote in favor of the bill and the Dems can claim bipartisanship.

If and when the Senate passed their version of the bill ,the bill will go to conference committee where all the precious things in the socialist wish list will be returned to the legislation. Then they will pass the bill with simple majorities .

By the way Lieberman was right to oppose the Medicare plan. Medicare can't sustain it's entitlement obligations now.

[tomder55]

Sen.Tom Coburn is having Sen.Bernie Sander's Single Payer Amendment read on the Senate floor right now. It is only a 767 page addition to the bill. With a vigorous reading it should only take about 12 hrs.


And you say the Republicans aren't doing anything useful . Finally a section of the bill will be read to the people who are voting on the bill!

[speechlesstx]

Coburn won this round, Sanders withdrew his amendment. And Howard Dean is now under attack, he's the "skunk in the room" now according to MSNBC's Mika Brzezinski and Norah O'Donnell:

BRZEZINSKI: The White House Christmas party last night and there was a skunk in the room when we thought it was Joe Lieberman, but it was Howard Dean.

O'DONNELL: They want to tie him up and let people come and beat him. They are so angry with him, that the skunk at the party and the issue is he said, "Kill the bill."

Wow, everyone hatin' on Dean now...

[Catsmine]

flamier
excon

?? :confused:??

[excon]

??????????:confused:??????????

Hello Cats:

When a flame grows, it gets flamier. You know. Like when you get mad, you could get maddier.

excon

[Catsmine]

Hello Cats:

When a flame grows, it gets flamier. You know. Like when you get mad, you could get maddier.

excon

I did not know that. Back to OED

[tomder55]

Mitch McConnell's floor speech yesterday :

“Senators on both sides acknowledge that the health care bill we're considering is among the most significant pieces of legislation any of us will ever consider.
“So it stands to reason that we'd devote significant time and attention to it.
“Indeed, some would argue that we should spend more time and attention on this bill than most — if not every — previous bill we've considered.
“The Majority disagrees.
“Why? Because this bill has become a political nightmare for them.
“They know Americans overwhelmingly oppose it, so they want to get it over with.
“Americans are already outraged at the fact that Democrat leaders took their eyes off the ball. Rushing the process on a partisan line makes the situation even worse.
“Americans were told the purpose of reform was to reduce the cost of health care.
“Instead, Democrat leaders produced a $2.5 trillion, 2,074-page monstrosity that vastly expands government, raises taxes, raises premiums, and wrecks Medicare.
“And they want to rush this bill through by Christmas — one of the most significant, far-reaching pieces of legislation in U.S. history. They want to rush it.
“And here's the most outrageous part: at the end of this rush, they want us to vote on a bill that no one outside the Majority Leader's conference room has even seen.
“That's right. The final bill we'll vote on isn't even the one we've had on the floor. It's the deal Democrat leaders have been trying to work out in private.
“That's what they intend to bring to the floor and force a vote on before Christmas.
“So this entire process is essentially a charade.
“But let's just compare the process so far with previous legislation for some perspective. Here's a snapshot of what we've done and where we stand:
• The Majority Leader intends to bring this debate to a close as early as this weekend — four days from now, on this $2.5 trillion dollar mistake
• No American who hasn't been invited into the Majority Leader's conference room knows what will be in that bill
• This bill has been the pending business of the Senate since the last week of November — less than four weeks ago.
• We started the amendment process two weeks ago.
• We've had 21 amendments and motions — less than two a day.
“Now let's look at how the Senate has dealt with previous legislation.
“No Child Left Behind (2001):
• 21 session days or 7 weeks.
• Roll Call votes: 44
• Number of Amendments offered: 157
“9/11 Commission/Homeland Security Act (2002):
• 19 session days over 7 weeks.
• Roll Call votes: 20
• Number of Amendments offered: 30
“Energy Bill (2002):
• 21 session days over 8 weeks
• Number of Roll Call votes: 36
• Number of Amendments offered: 158
“This isn't an energy bill. This is an attempt by a majority to take over one sixth of the U.S. economy — to vastly expand the reach and the role of government into the health care decisions of every single American — and they want to be done after one substantive amendment. This is absolutely inexcusable.
“I think Senator Snowe put it best on Tuesday:
'Given the enormity and complexity,' she said, 'I don't see anything magical about the Christmas deadline if this bill is going to become law in 2014.'
“And I think Senator Snowe's comments on a lack of bipartisanship at the outset of this debate are also right on point.
“Here's what she said in late November:
'I am truly disappointed we are commencing our historic debate on one of the most significant and pressing domestic issues of our time with a process that has forestalled our ability to arrive at broader agreement on some of the most crucial elements of health care reform. The bottom line is, the most consequential health care legislation in the history of our country and the reordering of $33 trillion in health care spending over the coming decade shouldn't be determined by one vote-margin strategies – surely we can and must do better.'
“The only conceivable justification for rushing this bill is the overwhelming opposition of the American people. Democrats know that the longer Americans see this bill the less they like it. Here's the latest from Pew. It came out just yesterday.
“A majority (58 percent) of those who have heard a lot about the bills oppose them while only 32 percent favor them.”
“There is no justification for this blind rush — except a political one, and that's not good enough for the American people.
“And there's no justification for forcing the Senate to vote on a bill none of us has seen.
“Americans already oppose this bill. The process is just as bad. “It's completely reckless, completely irresponsible.”

[excon]

And there’s no justification for forcing the Senate to vote on a bill none of us has seen.

Hello again, tom:

Sooooo, he might vote for the bill if he had time to read it?? Really?

excon

[tomder55]

Sooooo, he might vote for the bill if he had time to read it?? Really?

Depends on the content of the bill I would guess.

What he didn't say in his address was that the reason Reid et al left the bill on the floor blank (that's right the current bill on the floor of the Senate is a shell with not a single written word on it yet) ;is so he can pick among the socialist wish list provisions that the CBO is reviewing now individually ;and piece a jumbled mishmash;a hodgepodge of the various oddments that in total barely satisfy the President's requiremment that it be "deficit-neutral".Of secondary concern is the content . They want to be able to walk away at year end and brag that they "reformed "healthcare.

[speechlesstx]

I've already pointed out that according to Conyers, Rahmbo said "just give us anything and we’ll declare victory." Sounds a little like George Aiken's thoughts on declaring victory in Vietnam, "it may be a far-fetched proposal, but nothing else has worked."

Yeah, that's what we want for health care reform, and energy policy, and the deficit and just about every other Democratic 'solution,' just give us anything and we'll declare victory.

[excon]

just give us anything and we'll declare victory.

Hello again, Steve:

I don't doubt that the Dems are going to try. But, it ain't going to work. The people who put this congress and this president in office - the liberal base - did it for THIS bill. They don't care about cap and trade. They don't care about the stim. They don't care about TARP. They care about health care reform. If REAL reform doesn't pass, these people will abandon the Dems in droves...

That's why I think Sarah Palin has a shot.

excon

[tomder55]

There is a timeline for this cliff hanger that could go over the cliff. The word is that Reid has to start the procedural steps necessary for a final debate this weekend to meet a deadline of a 7 p.m. Christmas eve vote (yes they would try to pass it on Christmas Eve when almost nobody in the country is paying attention).

But as of now there is still a shell bill on the floor with no text or cost analysis in it. And there are still strong objections to various proposals by both so called moderates and so called progressives in the Senate.
Nelson of Nebraska and Casey of Penn. Are trying to hash out acceptable language on the abortion funding to make it appear that the plan would not have taxpayer funded abortions covered.

Word is that Nelson was threatened by the Obots with a BRAC closing of NORAD Offutt Air Force Base if he does not become a team player soon.Imagine that ;compromising national security unless he is a good team player .
20 Republican Senators demanded a hearing into this blackmail allegation in a letter to Sen.Armed Services Committee chair Carl Levin.
http://ensign.senate.gov/public/inde...a-ae4f0f54d84b

Nelson doesn't have a chance for reelection in his state if he goes along with a plan that would allow tax payer funded abortions so his political future is at risk with this vote ;something the progressives from blue states don't seem to appreciate. He also knows his state has a majority opposed to anything that would lead to a single-payer system.

But it is not just in Nebraska.The truth is that America just does not want the kind of health care plan the progressives envision. As Peter Brown at Quinnipiac University Polling Institute said “It's a good thing for those pushing the health care overhaul in Congress that the American people don't get a vote."
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dc/...est-of-ro.html

As for Reid;he doesn't stand a chance at reelection anyway .He sees this vote as his swan song legacy . That is why he has gone rhetorically over the top with comparing opponents to his version of health care reform to slavery supporters .
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectiv...aspx?id=813216

[tomder55]

don't doubt that the Dems are going to try. But, it ain't going to work. The people who put this congress and this president in office - the liberal base - did it for THIS bill. They don't care about cap and trade. They don't care about the stim. They don't care about TARP. They care about health care reform. If REAL reform doesn't pass, these people will abandon the Dems in droves...

That's why I think Sarah Palin has a shot.

Don't think so.Next election will be about jobs,jobs ,jobs.

Health care reform is a luxury. The last time any meaningful "reform " was done was in the early days of the Johnson term when the economy was rocking due to the JFK tax cuts.

I predict Sarah Barracuda will tour the rust belt states with the jobs theme and a promise to never agree to economy killing carbon deals that will impact the domestic industry .Linking energy to jobs is a winning formula ;but we are talking jobs now and not jobs in the unforseen future. A whole bunch of people who the current President disparaged as bitter-clingers in the last election will rally around her message and the Reagan coalition will be reborn.

Not sure she will be the standard bearer in 2012 ;but if not ,she will be a king maker.

[speechlesstx]

The Dem are already planning on running against Bush again next year and the GOP being "the party of no."

Funny though how more and more of what the Dems believed was a virtue is now the evil. From 2006:

Pelosi has embraced hard-knuckle partisanship, even if it means standing still. When Bush announced his Social Security plan last year, Pelosi told House Democrats they could never beat him in a straight-ahead, policy-against-policy debate because he had the megaphone of the presidency and was just coming off re-election. So the Democrats would thunderously attack Bush and argue there was no Social Security crisis and therefore no need for them to put out their own proposal. Some members were leery, concerned that Pelosi would make the Democrats look like the Party of No. As the spring of 2005 wore on, some pestered her every week, asking when they were going to release a rival plan. "Never. Is never good enough for you?" Pelosi defiantly said to one member. When Florida Democrat Robert Wexler publicly suggested raising Social Security taxes as the solution, Pelosi immediately chewed him out over the phone. Only one other Democrat signed on to his plan...

The Democrats won the Social Security battle Pelosi's way. That earned her credit with her colleagues, who have embraced her overall strategy. Throughout the past year, Pelosi has demanded that Democrats unanimously oppose G.O.P. bills. By denying the G.O.P votes from across the aisle, Democrats have forced moderate Republicans to back bills like those cutting Medicaid and other social programs that fiscally conservative Republicans have insisted on, votes for which Democrats have then attacked moderate Republicans in television ads. Pelosi has also ordered Democrats not to work on bills or even hold press conferences with Republicans whom the party is trying to defeat in November.

And by the way, the Nebraska governor urged Nelson to block the vote on Obamacare which gives him some cover for standing his ground. Come on Ben, follow Pelosi's example and be "the Senator of no."

[tomder55]

This failure at reform (and I think it is a failure now regardless of the final outcome of the vote ) will be a monument to Obama not living up to his campaign promises to forge bipartisan consensus .

During the campaign there were very few fundamental differences between candidates McCain and Obama.
They both agreed on issues dealing with reimportation of drugs from Canada and approval of generic drugs to control costs and add competition to the pharmacuetical companies. They both wanted to do more for people with chronic conditions .They both wanted tort and doctor liability reforms regarding malpractice. They both wanted portable health insurance .They both wanted to use information technology to reduce costs.

Of course there were differences also .Obama wanted a public option and McCain argued for health vouchers. But there were a lot of common ground to build consensus if the President decided to go that route.

Instead he handed what is generally considered the signature policy of his administration off to Congress with nothing more than general guidelines and marching orders to get something passed. He could've easily called his chief political rival into the White House and together they could've forged a bipartisan bill... simular to what President Bush did in his 1st years on issues like NCLB and Medicare Part D.


He has shown a remarkable disinterest in the work needed to achieve as the Chief Executive of the country . It is perhaps good politics to claim the Republicans are the party of no .But that doesn't tell the whole tale of mismanagement .

[excon]

(I think it is a failure now regardless of the final outcome of the vote )... He has shown a remarkable disinterest in the work needed to achieve

Hello tom:

I agree. Or, he got the bill he wanted in the first place. In either case, it's a failure. The Dems, with their majorities in BOTH houses AND the presidency, have proven they are unable to govern.

But, don't start crowing. The Republicans aren't any better. Looks like a Sarah Palin TEA party is going to emerge. Or, maybe Glenn Beck will take them over.

excon

[tomder55]

Given the choice of being blackmailed or taking a bribe Sen.Nelson opted for taking a bribe. Link below describes the 30 pieces of silver necessary for him to sell his soul.
Big Government Blog Archive SOLD: Sen. Nelson's Bribe

In its quixotic attempt to ensure everyone has health insurance, the Reid legislation greatly expands Medicaid eligibility. Because Medicaid is a program whose costs are split between the federal and state governments, this expansion in eligibility raise costs dramatically for states. States will be forced to either raise taxes or cut other services to accommodate the forced increase in Medicaid spending.
Unless that state is Nebraska.

.....the federal government will forever cover the costs of Medicaid expansion in Nebraska. Taxpayers in every other state will forever be responsible for the expanded Medicaid program in Nebraska.

Still included in the 383-page Reid 'manager's amendment '
( in federally subsidized plans participating in a Office of Personnel Management run Exchange),is an abortion premium and government funds being used to subsidize elective abortions.Abortion funding was allegidly the line Nelson would not cross.

[tomder55]

Historic reform:
30 million additional clients for the private insurance companies . One would think that was a Republican provision if you believe the false stereotype about the party. But in fact that is a key provion in the Reid amendment .

This new "reform" will force these new clients to either sign on to private ,or the "exchange " (also a privately run enterprise with nominal gvt management by the OPM),or face penalty and perhaps jail time.

Democrats may think that this is an interem step to a public option but the insurance lobby will become even more powerful with this massive givaway.

The Pharmaceutical industry managed to block reimportation of drugs;something that both candidates for President last year supported .

A mysterious provision in the Reid amendment ;designed to buy off or reward an undisclosed Senator who faces a tough reelection next year (Chris Dodd ) , would give $100 million Federal tax dollars to an undisclosed university (University of Connecticut) for the construction of a hospital. Also it is strongly rumored that Sen.Evan Bayh agreed to support the bill in exchange for a $100 million give away for the new Wishard Hospital in Indianapolis.

Louisiana(Mary Landrieu negotiated $100 million for 2011 before she would support the bill), Vermont and Massachusetts join Nebraska in having their share of the expanded Medicaid paid fully by the American taxpayers.

The Longshoremen union/ lobby was able to get their workers exempt from the new tax on high-value insurance plans.

more info as it becomes available. What this shows more than anything else is that moderates are people who will sell out to the highest bidder. At least the so called ideologues of both parties have a line they will not cross.


The Republicans tried to delay the scheduled 1AM vote this morning until 9 AM today to make it easier for Sen Byrd ;who is wheelchair bound to make it to the vote. Sen Harkin told them that it would be OK so long as the period between 1AM and 9AM were allocated to Republican time for the 30 hr debate scheduled for the next round. When the Republicans objected Harkin went into a 1/2 hr diatribe against the Republicans. Evidently Byrd made it to the 1AM vote because the cloture vote was 60-40 .

[excon]

Hello again:

So, they're going to get a bill. It's got enough in there for EVERYBODY to hate. I hated it too...

Notice, I used the word "hated" in the past tense... I don't know if I hate it now... Oh, I HATE it, but is it better than nothing? Will it make us better off, even marginally? Is passing SOMETHING, in order to be able to FIX it in the future, better than throwing it away and trying again?

The answer to the last is obvious... IF it fails this time, it won't be brought up again for another 30 or 40 years.

So, what about this half a loaf?

excon