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mitchsc · Oct 17, 2009, 06:23 PM

Seahwk,

I see you are online. I discovered something major just before I was about to do a fresh install.

I did a Sys Restore back about 3 week, and immediately turned off Windows Update. Since I did not get the last update or 2, my PC seems to be running normally (not slow).

The other day when I did the Sys Restore, it ran well for an hour, then got very slow later in the day. That was after the Windows updates. I didn't make the connection at the time.

It "seems" like the Windows update is causing my problem.

Have you ever heard of this???

If this is correct, I don't know quite what to do, as I believe the high priority updates are important, I don't want to leave auto-updates turned off.

Any thoughts on this?

seahwk83 · Oct 17, 2009, 06:49 PM

Personally I do manual updates as MS has updates the 2nd Tuesday of each month.

It could and happens, just need to narrow down which update that it may have been and then choose the option not to offer that update any longer.

If you do a restore and go back to updates manually, you will be able to see which updates are avail at that time (this would narrow down the possibilities) to do this though, you would have to do the manual update and then choose the Custom Option and this way you would be able to see which updates that are avail to update at that time.

It's a starting point if you do feel it is an update, it is possible.

For instance, MS has an update now KB 974445 that when installed on my XP machine will not let my IE go online for anything (just no connection page)

-I uninstalled this update and was able to get back online with IE
(Now the odd thing is, this update is intended for Vista and not XP but is showing up in XP updates)

This could be the problem for you but no way to tell except to go the trial and error.
-You can do the custom update and make sure not to install that update and see how system reacts.

Hope all that made sense

mitchsc · Oct 17, 2009, 07:39 PM

I see. I think I would have to go through the process to fully understand. It sounds a bit complicated in writing.

Question: since the problem seems to have been eliminated by doing a Sys Restore back to 9/25, there was only one 2nd Tues between then and now. That would have been 10/13. So that must be the date of the problem update.

If I don't do the fresh install, Is there any way I can choose not to install just the updates from 10/13, and go back to auto-updates from today forward?

Thanks SH...

mitchsc · Oct 17, 2009, 07:41 PM

One last thought, does it seem odd to you that this same update did not affect my other PC with XP on it?

mitchsc · Oct 17, 2009, 07:42 PM

SH,

Please see posts 23 and 24 above...

seahwk83 · Oct 17, 2009, 08:55 PM

If you go to add/remove progams, there is a checkbox on top that you can check that says 'Show Updates", check that box.

Go down the list and you will see updates listed as well as your apps installed and the date they were installed

This will help in seeing exactly what updates were installed and when and you can choose Remove

If you remove any, you can always go back to update and the updates will be avail again to install

mitchsc · Oct 18, 2009, 04:29 AM

This is perfect. Thanks.

1) If I turn on auto updates, won't the one I removed try to load again?

2) Is there some way to have auto updates on, and block a specific update from loading automatically?

seahwk83 · Oct 18, 2009, 07:14 AM

What you need to do is do the custom scan and then go through the updates that are lists, uncheck the update you do not want to update any more and below the txt that comes up is a check box that states, don't show me this update again - put check in that box and that update should not be offered any longer

mitchsc · Oct 18, 2009, 10:33 AM

Thanks, I found it. This is just what I needed!

If I select "Don't show this update again" will it also take it off the list of Auto-Updates?

Or does this only work if you load the updates manually?

seahwk83 · Oct 18, 2009, 10:45 AM

Hmm... don't really know on that one.

What you can try is to:
-Get system how you want it and is working properly
-Manually create a restore point
-Check the "Don't show this update again" box
-reset back to auto update
-If it does come back, use the restore point you manually created to go back

This will tell if auto will still update if set back to auto even if you have the box checked

Make sense?

mitchsc · Oct 18, 2009, 12:25 PM

Yes. Thank you very much SH.

morgaine300 · Oct 18, 2009, 05:06 PM

I have been reading this with interest. Especially after discussing some stuff with you earlier.

Just as a note, I was just reading another thread that someone's computer slowed down right after doing the last set of updates. So MS has mucked something up apparently. I always do them manually myself.

What I find interesting is that I'm one of the ones you refer to who does a clean install all the time. :p Just did it in July, last one before that was October last year. February earlier that year. If even the slightest thing starts acting quirky, I do a clean install, or if it's been a while I do it anyway. But I also have a list of everything I need to back up and it really doesn't take me that long, and I just reinstall programs as I need them - I never have everything on here at once. (That also means knowing what to back up, like where your preferences are kept and such. That got worse with XP cause of the user accounts it forces on you.)

However, another thing you can use images for is getting backed up files, not just for a full restore. I have scheduled images twice a month, as is -- yeah, it's doing a mess, but I only use it to get files back. Not all programs will do that, but I'm using Ghost and it will.

I'm sure a lot of people think it's over-kill, but on the other hand, I never have all these problems I'm constantly hearing about. If something goes really screwy, very likely it's cause a piece of hardware went bad or something. (Or I forgot that the driver CD thinks I have the wrong modem or something stupid.)

mitchsc · Oct 18, 2009, 05:44 PM

Hi Morgaine,

You couldn't have sent your post at a better time. I have spent the entire day trying to figure out if the Windows Update caused my slowdown, or if my PC is just due for a fresh install.

It turns out to be a mix of the two (I think).

When I do a system restore prior to the last Windows Update, my PC is 90% faster. I went back and forth, installing the updates, testing operational speed, then uninstalling the updates.

But then I noticed a subtle thing. As I have been spending the afternoon typing up a list of all the prep I must do before formatting my HDD (with no updates installed), I noticed that my PC kept getting slower and slower.

That brings me right up to getting your post.

I now believe that I need a fresh install. My PC hasn't acted like this for 18 months, since I did the last one. I can't say that I understand why is is slowing down before my very eyes. If I keep it running much longer today, I think it is going to crash. When I power cycle it, it speeds up again for a couple of hours, then creeps back to a crawl.

My assumption now is that the Windows updates just pushed it over the edge of whatever it had left (very technical explanation there).

Fortunately, the last time I did a fresh install (which took me forever as it was my first time and I had no notes about settings, etc), I bought an extra new internal hard drive (IDE), and used Casper to clone it just after I finished loading all my apps and configuring things. Then I stuck it in my desk and have been saving it as my "master HDD".

So this time, I will just clone from the master to my current drive and should have a very fresh version. I will however, have to update some things that I have changed / added in the past 18 months, but that is much easier than starting from scratch. I shall also update my master to my current state.

I hope this is all that is wrong. If it's still slow after the clone, I have no idea what to do.

I'm also going to take a chance and download the Windows Updates to current.

Question: does it seem reasonable that my PC would slow to a crawl after 18 months for no other reason than just normal use?

Thanks for the feedback. The clone shall be done in the next day or 2. Wish me luck...

morgaine300 · Oct 18, 2009, 08:13 PM

Nice that you have that clone. Funny that I never take advantage of Ghost to store a freshly installed image, but I just never do. I think I've installed clean so many times I just don't think much about it. I could decide to do it suddenly tomorrow evening and not think a thing of it.

But the first time I did it was with Win95 and my brother helped me, and I wrote down all these instructions and had to follow them for a while. That's when I started a list of preferences I wanted and such, and I still have that. It did seem rather complicated at the time and it took me days of preparation, backing up and such. So I know where you're coming from.

Mine has never slowed down drastically in a short span like that. It sounds like this is kind of sudden. As for slowing down from normal use, yes it can do that. Mine will do that, but it's usually gradual. However, I don't use the cleanup programs and am not familiar with them, so I don't know how well they work. (Somehow it makes me nervous trusting something to clean up my registry.) I just defrag occasionally and I do turn some services off.

I'm tempted to blame it on the update and hopefully that's all it is. It's just what the other poster described.

What's interesting is that I'm constantly experimenting, and constantly installing and uninstalling stuff. And I play games. So I get a lot of muck. And yet I still have less problems than most people I know. But if I want to experiment, I now have this attitude, oh, the worst that can happen is I have to reinstall. LOL.

Certainly a difference in our attitude about that, huh? :D

morgaine300 · Oct 18, 2009, 08:18 PM

P.S. Good luck.

mitchsc · Oct 19, 2009, 05:48 AM

Well thank you for the support. Maybe I'm making too big a deal out of the fresh install (or clone update). It gets a bit hectic around here, and I need quiet when I do these things, so I'm hesitant to start this until I know I can finish it.

I am concerned as well, about how abruptly my PC slowed down. Interestingly, last night, I was typing up some notes getting ready for this thing, all the while, no MS updates since Sept (Sys Restore), and my PC just kept getting slower. Almost to the point on not functioning.

Now I am wondering if it is just mucked up from use, or if the Windows Update messed something up that System Restore couldn't undo. Is that even possible?

One thing is for certain. When I download the last set of Windows updates from 10/13, my PC slows way down.

You commented above that someone else had the same experience. Do you think there is any chance that MS is now aware of this and has fixed, or will fix, the update?

Question; when I do the fresh install / clone, do you think it is risky to install the last Windows Updates from 10/13? I'd hate to go through all that work, only to install some screwed up update that will kill my registry.

I am surprised to hear you don't use a registry cleaner. I have had so many people swear by them. CCleaner "seems" to be everyone's favorite. That is the only reason I use it. It is fast and easy to use, but I really don't have any idea if it is messing anything up in there. When I do a registry clean, it is usually just deleting some temp stuff after an install.

The whole point was to KEEP my system clean so I wouldn't have to do another fresh install for a while. I guess that plan didn't work so well. Maybe I should take your cue and stop cleaning my registry.

PS: Just had an idea. Checked the speed on my wife's PC (XP SP3 with a slower processor) which included the Windows updates. Then did a Sys restore to before the Updates. Checked speed again. Seemed about the same. Did Sys Restore Undo. Checked speed again. Couldn't see a noticeable difference.

Can these same Windows Updates affect different computers in different ways?

Thanks Morgaine...

morgaine300 · Oct 19, 2009, 11:05 PM

You're starting to ask too many things I don't know. I just have my own experiences -- not the expert some of these people are. :) Hopefully someone else will see the ones I don't know and answer them.

Well thank you for the support. Maybe I'm making too big a deal out of the fresh install (or clone update). It gets a bit hectic around here, and I need quiet when I do these things, so I'm hesitant to start this until I know I can finish it.

I certainly can understand that, especially if you are not experienced with it. If I had only done it once or twice, I'd be making a big deal of it too. I guess it depends on whether it's something you really, really despise and would prefer to stay way from, or if you'd be interested in getting to the point you can do it easily - that will just take doing it a few times until you know what you're doing and get comfortable. I'm pretty anal about backing everything up so that I don't just have my documents and saved games and such, but also have my preferences and that sort of thing. That took time to learn, and I have notes.

Your idea of cloning a good fresh install, with everything set the way you want, is a terrific idea! That way you get a fresh install, and only need deal with anything new you've done. I personally don't think I could handle it. I change too much, for one. And I also like to have control. Using a clone would be like having my computer doing something behind my back. LOL. I turn off as much automatic stuff as I can.

I am concerned as well, about how abruptly my PC slowed down. Interestingly, last night, I was typing up some notes getting ready for this thing, all the while, no MS updates since Sept (Sys Restore), and my PC just kept getting slower. Almost to the point on not functioning.

I do find that extremely odd.

Now I am wondering if it is just mucked up from use, or if the Windows Update messed something up that System Restore couldn't undo. Is that even possible?

Um, not sure. I don't use the restore. (Is that a big surprise?) I used it once not long after I got XP, and I know it certainly didn't do what I expected it to. I know that restore does not put things back exactly the way they were -- but I do not know which things it either doesn't restore at all or does incorrectly.

Let's just say I'm not terribly surprised that just using a restore point didn't work. That isn't a solution for everything. But you need someone else to tell you if this particular situation would be normal.

One thing is for certain. When I download the last set of Windows updates from 10/13, my PC slows way down.

You commented above that someone else had the same experience. Do you think there is any chance that MS is now aware of this and has fixed, or will fix, the update?

Has an update? No.
Security Bulletin Search Products Technologies KB Articles Service Packs
This is straight to the list of bulletins. (Where I get them manually.) Last date is 10/13 and nothing since. Aware of it? I wouldn't have any idea. I know someone who might know though, cause he has access to all sorts of stuff and has to deal with this for his work. I can ask. In fact, I can ask about the restore issue too. Assuming someone here doesn't see this and answer that first. He's definitely a good resource.

Question; when I do the fresh install / clone, do you think it is risky to install the last Windows Updates from 10/13? I'd hate to go through all that work, only to install some screwed up update that will kill my registry.

Um... you may want to wait and see if we can find a better answer to some of your other questions, to see how sure it seems that the update is causing problems. You can always do it manually and skip the problem one for now. (I hope that is in this thread cause I wanted to make note not to get that one. ;) ) (No, I don't have Oct updates yet. I'm a bad girl.)

I am surprised to hear you don't use a registry cleaner.

LOL. I just don't end up with problems that have ever given me a reason to use one on a regular basis. If I don't like something my computer is doing, I prefer a fresh install. Cleaning the registry just feels like a temporary bandage to me. I make messes more places than the registry. (It's similar to how I can delete everything off a partition and then format it anyway when there's no point. Just makes me feel it's cleaner.)

Have you figured out that I'm really anal yet? :p

The whole point was to KEEP my system clean so I wouldn't have to do another fresh install for a while. I guess that plan didn't work so well. Maybe I should take your cue and stop cleaning my registry.

I'm not the only one with an opinion you know. :p That's my thing. It doesn't have to be yours. I think people do need to keep their computers, well more like their software, more cleaned up, and stop doing silly things on the internet, and they wouldn't have all the problems they do. But how you choose to keep things clean is kind of a personal thing. Like I said, that just feels like a temporary bandage to me. I've never believed a registry cleaner is some kind of permanent solution, but more like something to do between fresh installs. How long between installs is a matter of what you do and how messy things get.

PS: Just had an idea. Checked the speed on my wife's PC (XP SP3 with a slower processor) which included the Windows updates. Then did a Sys restore to before the Updates. Checked speed again. Seemed about the same. Did Sys Restore Undo. Checked speed again. Couldn't see a noticeable difference.

Curious.

Can these same Windows Updates affect different computers in different ways?

Another one I really don't know. I wouldn't be surprised, perhaps depending on the entire configuration of the computer? I'd test it on mine, except I don't want mine slowing down either. :eek: I don't even know yet what this particular update is, so I may not even need it. Some updates are dependent on programs you have, or even on prior updates you have.

I'm going to go back and see what that update was that was mentioned, and then I will post on the other group and ask that guy about all this and just see what his opinion is.

mitchsc · Oct 20, 2009, 05:49 AM

Morgaine,

Thanks for taking all the time with me on this...

I'm curious too, so I downloaded 1 of 10 Win updates, 1 at a time yesterday and checked speed & operational performance. Then uninstalled the update and did the next one. No difference. There doesn't seem to be an individual problem with one of the 10 updates from 10/13.

I did a Sys Restore to an even earlier date and turned off all my auto updates, including my virus-scan updates (very bad), and now my PC is running (close) to normal... about 90%.

I think I am going to do one last "blow out" test and download all updates at once from everywhere, and see if it affects speed. Curiosity again.

Then I think I will do that fresh install (clone) and be done with it. I realize I am spending more time "investigating" than it would have taken me to just do the fresh install. I just like to know what is going on. If this is normal behavior for a PC that needs a fresh install, then I will at least be able to recognize it next time, and not go down some garden path of "mysteriously corrupted" Windows Updates. I hope I am making "some " sense.

I do know it happens though. I met someone that repairs computers who told me he had a client that did a Windows Update which caused the "Blue Screen of Death".

Thanks for asking your friend about this.

MSC

morgaine300 · Oct 20, 2009, 09:35 PM

Well, I did check about the updates and the guy I 'talked' with said he was unaware of any updates that were causing problems, and that in fact, it'd been quite a long time since an update had come out that caused any major problems like that. He thinks it is entirely unrelated. From the sounds of your experimenting, it seems you've already decided that for yourself.

I think one thing you need to understand that a problem like this happening does not say that x, y or z is the problem and that you can always solve it in a, b or c manner. There are sometimes problems that very much sound like something specific, but figuring out what is going on with a computer can be very difficult. I think you're assuming too quickly that reinstalling everything will solve the problem.

Slowing down over time can be typical. But slowing down suddenly like what you're describing has sounded a little odd to me.

Sometimes the virus scanners themselves can cause problems. What are you using? (I don't recall if you've ever said.) And because a scan does not produce something doesn't mean that everything from a virus/malware point of view is fine. You might want to try scanning with other programs.

It was suggested that you try to check into some hardware problems, such as your peripherals, hard drive, memory. That's getting into an area I don't know much about. There's only two things I know how to do when I wonder about non-software issues. One is trading off with another. For instance, if you don't know if the video problem is the monitor or your video card (if either), you can try with a different monitor, and also try your monitor on a different computer. That sort of thing. (That doesn't work for everything cause you start getting into driver issues and such.) The other thing you can do is get into device manager and see if there's a problem with anything. Those are the things I can do, and from there I have to start asking other people what they think. Well, I can also mess with drivers.

As I said, I'm not sure a sudden slow-down would be from normal usage -- quirky things that happen over time can most definitely be. So I don't know if you'll solve it that way, though if you still have the problem after a fresh install, that will tell you something. But also don't assume because something solves something one time, that it will solve the same problem the next time.

I'd certainly like to know how things turn out with this, but I think I'm fairly well tapped out in terms of my own knowledge. Unless of course you isolate something more specific.

mitchsc · Oct 21, 2009, 07:07 AM

Hey Morgaine,

I am actually right in the middle of a fresh install. I believe I also found the problem!

Got almost everything in and configured, with all auto-updates turned off. The PC was flying!!!

Have not yet turned on Windows updates.

Had my virus-scan on but not updated (it's made by Computer Associates and it's ver CA ISS 2007). It has caught every virus that ever came sniffing around, so I'm pretty happy with it. It is provided to me free by my ISP (Roadrunner). And it is constantly updating (every hour or so).

As soon as I hit the virus scan updates, my PC immediately went right back to where it was yesterday. Everything is slow, delayed, and loading in "chunks".

So after 12 hours of reloading and configuring, I'm right back where I started. YIKES!

It's still early here (7am), but I will be calling CA in a few hours to ask them for help. Obviously, there is no way I can do without virus updates, so I hope they have a solution. I've been getting these updates for years, and this has never happened before. I know that virus scanning can slow a PC down a bit, but I am operating at about 20-25% of normal.

Thanks again... MSC