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JudyKayTee · Oct 5, 2009, 03:50 AM

My colleague, excon, and I are on opposite sides of the fence on this one.

Briefly, OP and girlfriend were "caught" shoplifting in Canada (whether or not it was a mistake is rather irrelevant to this question) by store security, not arrested. OP's girlfriend has now received a letter from a Canadian law firm stating that if she does not pay a certain sum of money as restitution she will be arrested. OP is presently in US and expects same letter.

Is this extortion?

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/crimin...-a-402283.html

shazamataz · Oct 5, 2009, 04:22 AM

I tend to be in agreeance with Exy, in saying that though I do not know Canadian law.

I just know that here in Australia the police have to charge you at the time of the offence... they can't show up, slap you on the wrist and then later decide they want to do something about it.

When I worked in a store we had quite a few shoplifters... the police didn't come along and just take their details down, they took them down to the station to be charged.

NeedKarma · Oct 5, 2009, 04:39 AM

It doesn't make sense at all. A civil case gets someone arrested for not responding? It's a scam.

tickle · Oct 5, 2009, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

It doesn't make sense at all. A civil case gets someone arrested for not responding? It's a scam.

This was my original response, that it was a scam. But there is no claim unless there is a judgment. Many people would be threatened just by receiving a letter from a law firm and pay up I don't think Cdn. Tire, a large retailer in Ontario, would use a little known law firm to carry out their business.

Tick

NeedKarma · Oct 5, 2009, 07:20 AM

If it was me I would go to the lawyer's location on the letter to see if it's a real law office. And you are correct, Canadian Tire would retain a large firm with offices in all provinces.

JudyKayTee · Oct 5, 2009, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

If it was me I would go to the lawyer's location on the letter to see if it's a real law office. And you are correct, Canadian Tire would retain a large firm with offices in all provinces.

Yes, it's a real law office and a large, respected law firm at that. This is no scam, no fake firm.

Why does anyone think that?

For that matter, why would Canadian Tire have one law firm on retainer for all of its location, a firm with various locations?

Not the least bit unusual to have local counsel here and local counsel there.

NeedKarma · Oct 5, 2009, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Yes, it's a real law office and a large, respected law firm at that. This is no scam, no fake firm.

How do you know that? He hasn't posted the letter. Do you have info we don't have?

JudyKayTee · Oct 5, 2009, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

How do you know that? He hasn't posted the letter. Do you have info we don't have?

He didn't need to post the letter - he posted the name of the firm. Aside from that, they are the Attorney of record for Canadian Tire.

Did you actually read the original post?

Home - Dutton Brock: The Awarded Toronto Law Firm Specializing in Litigation and Insurance Law.

NeedKarma · Oct 5, 2009, 07:35 AM

I totally missed that from the OP, it was in small caps. Apologies all 'round Yea, this is indeed interesting. It's not the typical route taken by a company in Canada. They must have some incredible burden of proof to try this when criminal charges were waved by the local police.

Also Cdn Tire seem to have in-house counsel: Canadian Lawyer Magazine - More than just tires

This is all very strange.

JudyKayTee · Oct 5, 2009, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I totally missed that from the OP, it was in small caps. Apologies all 'round Yea, this is indeed interesting. It's not the typical route taken by a company in Canada. They must have some incredible burden of proof to try this when criminal charges were waved by the local police.

Also Cdn Tire seem to have in-house counsel: Canadian Lawyer Magazine - More than just tires

This is all very strange.

In house is not going to trot all over Canada chasing shoplifters.

I'll use KMart as an example - local law firms; in house counsel. Both.

NeedKarma · Oct 5, 2009, 07:52 AM

If it were me I'd let the local firm start proceedings then see what they have at discovery.

this8384 · Oct 5, 2009, 08:23 AM

I don't know Canadian law, but where I'm at, restitution has to be ordered by a judge as part of a hearing. Not that a law firm can send you a letter saying, "You owe X amount of dollars. Pay it or else."

My experience was when someone damaged a door on my rental property; he took off and the cops were called. They caught him, charged him with disorderly conduct, and the judge ordered him to pay me restitution for the cost of the door and its replacement. It wasn't that I sent the guy a letter saying, "Hey, you owe me $250 since you broke my door."

Personally, I'd be hesitant to pay anything.

excon · Oct 5, 2009, 09:19 AM

Hello:

From Wikki:

"Extortion, outwresting, or exaction is a criminal offense which occurs when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion.

Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense."
--------------------------------

From Barrons Law Dictionary:

"Under the modern statutes, extortion is the illegal taking of money by ANYONE who employs threats, or other illegal use of fear or coercion in order to obtain money"
---------------------------------

What else is there to say?

excon

NeedKarma · Oct 5, 2009, 09:32 AM

Actually it's a statement of claim that includes a settlement offer.

Fr_Chuck · Oct 5, 2009, 09:47 AM

I will be middle of the road, yes it is, but it is legal under Canadian law.
So they are allowed to do it.

Of course consider pay your taxes or the government allow the IRS to use their own courts to take our property, our homes, our bank accounts.

tanequil · Oct 5, 2009, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

My colleague, Excon, and I are on opposite sides of the fence on this one.

Briefly, OP and girlfriend were "caught" shoplifting in Canada (whether or not it was a mistake is rather irrelevant to this question) by store security, not arrested. OP's girlfriend has now received a letter from a Canadian law firm stating that if she does not pay a certain sum of money as restitution she will be arrested. OP is presently in US and expects same letter.

Is this extortion?

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/crimin...-a-402283.html

Quick edits: I was threatened with "being taken to the court + law suit + charges".. the lawyer went on to say that it might actually impede me travelling across the border and may hamper my medical studies..

Alty · Oct 6, 2009, 08:29 PM

Legal or not legal I don't know. Unfair, yes.

Personally, if you're worried about your future because of this, I'd pay. I'd get a lawyer to look over the letter first, make sure it's legit, but then, if the lawyer gives the okay, I'd pay.

You don't want this to cause future problems but don't just pay without checking into it.

Soleil001 · Oct 14, 2009, 09:41 AM

Judy (and anyone else who's interested):

I have posted a fairly extensive response on the page where this originally came up (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/crimin...ml#post2031175).

The short answer is that excon is way off base. As long as this process is done properly it is quite legal and not a scam.

Hope my post is helpful.

excon · Oct 14, 2009, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Soleil001

The answers I have seen posted here show a real ignorance of the law and how it works. I’m not saying that to be mean,

(1) Forget about the fact that no criminal charges were laid -- it's irrelevant. In Canada, there are two main types of courts, criminal and civil.

Hello S:

Couple things...

Other than the Constitution, I don't have a stake in the law. I'm happy to have the CORRECT law presented. If you noticed, both Judy and myself were longing for someone to come along. You did. No need to apologize.

I BUY your argument in terms of civil law. It makes sense. I agree further, that bringing criminal charges, or not WOULDN'T be relevant... UNLESS the demand for money was in exchange for the stores silence in regard to CRIMINAL charges.

I suggest, sir, that if they did that, they'd be guilty of extortion.

In the INSTANT case, it's not clear whether the threat is to PAY or CRIMINAL charges will be levied, or if it's strictly civil. So, this case isn't really a good example to make the blanket statements you did...

I say that, because over the last several years, when these situations have come up, the trade has, for the most part, always been in exchange for criminal charges NOT being levied. I stand by my statements in THOSE circumstances...

I'll see if I can't bring up a few of those posts for your perusal.

excon

twinkiedooter · Oct 14, 2009, 04:52 PM

In a way, yes, it is extortion, but on the other hand, it does allow the guilty party to pay a fine (or whatever you might call it) and skate down the road free as a bird (minus a few hundred bucks but free nonetheless). This is for first time offenders (shoplifters). There is no such free skate away policy in the USA. Here we are just charged, sent to court, convicted and then get the privilege of paying a fine and/or probation for who knows how long and have a criminal record hanging around our necks for future use in trying to get a job.

In some ways I think it's a fair system making the guilty person (who accidentally got caught stealing) pay and hopefully making them come to grips with their shoplifting problem (they definitely did this before but were just not caught at it) and hopefully stop their klepto habit.

Extortion? No. Expensive lesson? Definitely yes. Or expensive shirt, tie, shoes, perfume, lipstick (whatever item stolen)? Quite definitely.

I once stupidly parked in a handicapped spot to buy my late husband a 6 pack of beer. Each bottle cost me around $50. Lesson learned the hard way.

For folks who like to be sticky fingered and take stuff that's not theirs chances are they will get caught later than sooner in some people's lives, but get caught they will eventually.

Canada does not "clutter" up their courts and judges with trifling cases as first time shoplifters. They let the merchants get "paid" the first time for catching the criminals. The second time, it's on the government's dime.