[excon]

Hello Elliot:

You have no understanding of what a libertarian is. You think libertarians are uber right wingers… In one sense, they are… They are also, in some senses, uber left wingers.. In fact, libertarianism is where the politics of the left and the right meet. Libertarians find consistency there…

Let me explain. As we’ve discussed in the past, despite your protestations to the contrary, you’re really NOT an anti government AT ALL. Nope. In fact, you are extremely PRO the COP part of government…. You BELIEVE in government control of the masses, as long as it’s YOUR control… That belief, is actually very liberal, in that you think it’s just fine to use government power to enforce a social viewpoint, as long as it’s a viewpoint you subscribe to…

A libertarian, on the other hand, doesn’t believe in using government power to enforce ANY political viewpoint. It believes the government job is to enforce the Constitution, and nothing more. So, when I rail against torture for example, I’m actually espousing CONSERVATIVE values. You, on the other hand, are extremely liberal in the way you SUPPORT using government power.

I know you don’t like being painted as the lefty you are… But, that’s what I’m here for; to call a spade a spade.

excon

[ETWolverine]

So you are saying that libertarians believe that the government shouldn't enforce reasonable laws. That government shouldn't prevent crime. That government has no business protecting property rights.

Bull$h!t. That's not libertarianism. That's anarchism.

You clearly have no understanding of either the true role of government or the meaning of libertarianism.

The role of government is extremelyu limited. Government is there to do three things.

1) Protect the rights of individuals, most particularly property rights,

2) Create an environment of economic growth wherein business can grow, individuals can accumulate wealth, and goods and services can be freely transferred,

3) Protect the nation from all threats, foreign and domestic.

There is no other job for government.

Libertarians believe in EXACTLY that. That the role of government is to PROTECT individual freedoms, not limit them. THAT is libertarianism in a nutshell.

It is also, for the most part, Conservatism in a nutshell.

It is also CLASSICAL Liberalism in a nutshell.

What it is not is MODERN Liberalism.

Modern Liberalism essentially believes that the job of government is to control the decisions we make, because the modern liberal believes that the common person is too stupid to make decisions for themselves. They believe that it is the government's job to protect the masses from the evils of everything from "corporate injustice" to junk food. And it is their intent to legislate all of it.

The Conservative and the Libertarian BOTH disagree with this concept.

Where does the Conservative differ from the Libertarian? One place is with regard to Federalism. The Conservative believes that any powers not specifically enumerated in the Constitution as belonging to the Federal Governmment belongs instead to the State. The Libertarian believes that those powers belong to the PEOPLE. And that is an important difference.

For instance, a Conservative would argue that reasonable gun control laws should be in the hands of the States, not the Federal government, because such powers are not enumerated in the Constitution. The Libertarian believes that there should be no gun laws whatsoever, and anyone should be allowed to own any gun they desire as long as they have the money to buy it.

I happen to be a Libertarian on gun issues, as you know. I'm a Conservative on most other issues.

But when it comes to Federal control, the Conservative and the Libertarian are pretty much on the same page... they should have as LITTLE power as they can get away with in order to accomplish the three goals I mentioned above.

I don't know where you get the idea that Conservatives are trying to legislate our political policies. We are, in fact, trying to UNLEGISLATE as much as possible that the Federal Government stuck their noses into.

For instance... Abortion should never have been a Supreme Court issue in the first place. It's a STATES RIGHTS issue. Conservatives aren't trying to ban abortion, they are trying to undo Roe V. Wade and then let the STATES decide what the law should be.

We are also trying to UNLEGISLATE the judicial fiat legislation regarding religious symbols in public places.

That's the key... we're trying to REVERSE modern liberalism because it is WRONG and it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

You mention my support of cops as your big "example" of how "liberal" I am. Cops are there to do two things... protect property rights against criminals, and protect against crime (domestic threat). Their existence is SPECIFICALLY deliniated in the Constitution. They are one of the few LEGITIMATE powers granted to the government in the Constitution. That is why I support them. That's why EVERY Conservative and Libertarian should support them.

You, being neither Conservative nor Libertarian, but rather a full-fledged modern liberal, do not support them.

Then there's my support for the CIA. Again, this is one of the areas where the Federal Government has legitimacy under the Constitution. To protect the country from all threats, foreign or domestic is one of the three reasons the government exists and one of the three areas they can legitimately act. Protecting us from foreign threat is the sole purpose of the CIA. That is why I support them, and why every Conservative and Libertarian should support them as well.

You, being neither Conservative nor Libertarian, but rather a full-fledged modern liberal, do not support them.

Ditto for the military.

That is the point you miss... it isn't about legislating my political viewpoint. It's about making sure the government DOESN'T legislate IT'S political viewpoint in violation of the Constitution, and acting to UNDO that legislation when it occurs. I don't want the government to enforce my viewpoints. I don't want the cops to enforce my viewpoints. I don't want the CIA to enforce my viewpoints. I want them to do their jobs as mandated by the Constitution... to protect individual rights, to insure an economic environment that allows for a free market and accumulation of personal wealth, and to protect us from all threats foreign and domestic. THAT is my goal. That is the goal of the Constitution. And that is the goal of every Conservative and Libertarian.

But not yours, obviously.

I highly suggest that you read up on the "social contract" and perhaps try reading the Federalist papers and some of the other writings of the Founders. Even the Anti-Federalist papers will add some new knowledge to your understanding of the role of government.

I also suggest that you read Mark Levin's "Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto".

Then you'll have a decent understanding of the role of government, the role of the people within the social contract and the difference between Conservatism (including libertarianism) and Statism (modern liberals, socialists, progressives, communists, feudalists and tyrants).

Till then, you're talking about stuff you don't understand from a completely emotional standpoint with no basis in either law or history.

I thought you knew something about civics and the role of government. Your post proves me wrong about your knowledge base.

Elliot