[sndbay]

This is kinda off topic but the Apostle Paul says we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit. Now, how are ya gonna get UNsealed? it ain't happenin.

Scripture tells us we could indeed offend the Holy Spirit, or cause sorrow where we were sealed.
Eph 4:29-30 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Scripture says that in the end times when the anti-christ comes with his flood of lies. That for the sake of the elect, this time was shorten, (because if it was not shorten), every flesh would be lost and unsaved. (Matthew 24:22- Mark 13:20)

Jesus also says he will never leave us or forsake us. Never means just that...NEVER. God cannot lie.

Christ has not made us puppets... Jesus does not forsake us... It is our own choices in life that determines tries and reprove. It is our own accountability in faith and love to do HIS will, and denying ourselves to avoid darkness. Scripture says "Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God."

Eph 6:16-17-18 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints

[jenniepepsi]

Scripture tells us that God is equal, and HIS way is equal for all. Everyone has the same equal way to live in Christ, in Faith of all that is written. The gospel is profitable unto godliness, and (all souls belong to God. Eze 18:4)

It is man that is not equal, nor are his ways equal.

EXAMPLE: Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.... However! Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
********

When you say God does not use a pencil and eraser to what we are doing, I find HIS judgement to be upon righteousness. God certainly cares for each of us, and God does watch over us, and give us reprove and tries us. (That is HIS pencil and eraser...) The book of revelation speaks of those who will be clothed in fine linen, and it is the righteousness of acts that makes us ready as a bride for the wedding. (Revel 19:7)
Those who follow Christ are clothed in fine linen, clean and white.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Hey sndbay :)

I'm a little confused. Do you think I was saying that we as humans are equal with god? That's not what I meant :P hehe. I agree with everythign you say here :P

[N0help4u]

I think Sndbay meant that he treats all people equal not that we are equal with God.

Sndby is saying that we can grieve God by our actions. Saying that God uses a pencil and eraser to get us doing right... I guess??


I meant pencil and eraser as he already knows if you are saved and therefore isn't erasing your name out of the book of life every time you mess up and rewriting it back in the book of life every time you repent.
Its either there or it isn't

[jenniepepsi]

Ahhh that makes sense

[sndbay]

i dont think anything makes you less a christian, or less ANYTHING.

god said we are ALL EQUAL IN HIS EYES. we are ALL equall sinners, we are all either christian or not. you can't be 'well, im 20% christian, but not 100%"

Let we try to show the difference in what I mean. ( sin is sin ) does a level of degree exist in sin? NO I trust it does not. However a sinner is one hanging out on a tree, and continues in sin that is sin. Faith in Christ says we are set free from sin, set free from the curse of the law, forgiven and washed clean (no more sin). How do we arrive at being set free? (1 Peter 2:24 Who HIS own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed)

By being a Christian (a christian is faith in Christ) can there be a level of difference in this faith? Yes, as Paul spoke of babes that grow in their faith. (1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby)

Until we as a Christian return from being sheep going their own way, to sheep that hear HIS voice, we remain as babes growing to return unto the Shepherd and Bishop of their souls.

The growth of babes leads to them suffering in the flesh that (does stop sin), and that they no longer live the rest of their time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
(1 Peter 4:2-3 )

Then being "IN CHRIST" where their heart is willing to follow. And that the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ would grant them, according to the riches of HIS glory, to be strengthened with might by HIS Spirit in their inner man. Living in the full assurance of the gospel, profit of godliness, and be filled with all the fulness of God. (Eph 3)

It is written that there is a growth in being a Christian.. example (Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat)

The milk is for babes, and in growth we can grow to the strong meat of what is written. (Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil)

Hebrew 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

So I trust we are not all 100 % Christian or at the same degree of faith, until we grow from being the sinner to being IN CHRIST. There is no pride to be shown in this growth because "all glory" is given to our Father who reveals truth. Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ

(Eph 4:13) says we can grow to the fulness of Christ in knowledge to a perfect man. (not a sinner)

[classyT]

Scripture tells us we could indeed offend the Holy Spirit, or cause sorrow where we were sealed.
Eph 4:29-30 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Scripture says that in the end times when the anti-christ comes with his flood of lies. That for the sake of the elect, this time was shorten, (because if it was not shorten), every flesh would be lost and unsaved. (Matthew 24:22- Mark 13:20)



Christ has not made us puppets... Jesus does not forsake us... It is our own choices in life that determines tries and reprove. It is our own accountability in faith and love to do HIS will, and denying ourselves to avoid darkness. Scripture says "Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God."

Eph 6:16-17-18 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints

Snd,

Never said we couldn't grieve the Holy Spirit... I know we can. But we are still sealed with him. Certainly the Lord didn't make us puppets but once you believe the Lord and have a relationship with him... I'm just not buying the thought that we can become lost. There is NO WAY if you really believed... no way you have a relationship. When you KNOW him how can you NOT know him. When you are placed IN HIM... how do you get place OUT of HM?

My Lord said he'd never leave me or forsake me... HE is talking to the believer there and he didn't put ANY condition on it. HE said NEVER and I am very comfortable at taking Him at his word. I won't put a condition there if he didn't.

[Tj3]

Snd,

never said we couldn't grieve the Holy Spirit...i know we can. But we are still sealed with him. Certainly the Lord didn't make us puppets but once you believe the Lord and have a relationship with him...i'm just not buying the thought that we can become lost. There is NO WAY if you really believed.....no way you have a relationship. When you KNOW him how can you NOT know him.? When you are placed IN HIM...how do you get place OUT of HM?

my Lord said he'd never leave me or forsake me....HE is talking to the believer there and he didn't put ANY condition on it. HE said NEVER and I am very comfortable at taking Him at his word. I won't put a condition there if he didn't.

I agree with you that grieving the Holy Spirit does not mean that we have fallen away from being saved. But can one fall away from being saved?

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV

How can the persons referred to here that have fallen away, be renewed to repentance if they never had it? How can they crucify again the Son of God and put Him to shame if they were never His and never partook of the benefit of the cross?

[sndbay]

Snd,

...i'm just not buying the thought that we can become lost. There is NO WAY if you really believed.....no way you have a relationship. When you KNOW him how can you NOT know him.? When you are placed IN HIM...how do you get place OUT of HM?

Once we believe we are, as you said, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13) I trust all can at that time, begin their faith as the grain of a mustard seed.

What is also written is that daily we fight the fight, to bare our cross in following Christ. Paul wrote that he feared evil would beguile the mind to cause corruption.

Your own journey in Christ can vary from what is possilbe for others. What is within your heart of convicion with faith, has been granted, and revealed to you by the Father.
Holding stedfast to that love and promise can only be done by the power of God. Your request that you have shown within your heart to God is what you are confessing is your trust, your faith and your love in Christ.

I believe my heart does confess in Christ a willing heart, to live and walk in HIS steps, and live in righteousness without sin. I pray that with HIS strength and HIS will to be done, I can be all He created me to be. Sincerely in Christ's name ..

my Lord said he'd never leave me or forsake me....HE is talking to the believer there and he didn't put ANY condition on it. HE said NEVER and I am very comfortable at taking Him at his word. I won't put a condition there if he didn't.

Christ won't forsake anyone... but man must not forsake HIM. The scripture you have noted goes on to say "So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me." (Hebrew 5:3-5)

Christ is our helper, and if we hear HIS voice the truth we then hear, and can follow HIM.

The hope is not to end in corruption of man as Paul feared but to Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

[classyT]

Snd,

You are still putting a condition to what the Lord said. (I think)... if you are a REAL believer than I believe never means never. I certainly haven't always walked what I believed but he never left me. NO not ever!

[DrJ]

Wow.. you guys don't even need our help to get off topic :D

(friendly fire, everyone.. friendly fire)

Anyway, I would have to add something to this discussion. The Bible does say to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior and you shall be saved.

Doesn't this include active homosexuals who have accepted Him?

[classyT]

Tom,

UGH, you and that verse in hebrews! Well we will never come to an agreement here because I do not believe these people were true believers. They tasted, partook, were enlightened then went back to offering SACRIFCES! Now come on! Could YOU do that? NO and why? Because you believe that Jesus finished the job... they didn't believe it. That is my story and I am sticking to it! :)

[classyT]

wow.. you guys dont even need my help to get off topic :D

(friendly fire, everyone.. friendly fire)

Anyway, I would have to add something to this discussion. The Bible does say to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior and you shall be saved.

Doesn't this include active homosexuals who have accepted Him?

Dr D.

It does say that and I believe it. I believe there are Christians living in all kinds of sin, including homosexuality. But I don't believe they can stay in that condition and be happy. When I am in KNOWN sin... I am MISERABLE because I am not pleasing the Lord, I am grieving the Holy Spirit... you talk about unhappy! I think of that one preacher( what is his name0? That preached against homosexuality and was having a relationship with a man on the sly.. also into drugs. Do I think he was never real? ( well it isn't really my call) but I personally think the guy is saved but when you listen to his testimony on Oprah he was living in hell because of the sin and lies and misery. AND the Bible says (in Hebrews I believe) that there is a sin unto death. Not sure I understand it totally but I don't want to get to that point.

Plus remember the guy in Corinthians who was living in known sin... Paul always recognized him as a believer in Christ too.

However there are many who would disagree with me.

[DrJ]

You mean Paul Crouch?

Funny how he "changed his ways" and told everyone that he was living in Hell because of it all AFTER he got caught. (just sayin')

But yes, I would have to agree with you Classy. While the Book teaches us of things that please the Lord, the only real requirement for Christianity is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Savior, is it not?

[sndbay]

Snd,

You are still putting a condition to what the Lord said. (I think)....if you are a REAL believer than I believe never means never. I certainly haven't always walked what I believed but he never left me. NO not ever!

I really don't feel it is a condition in what Christ promised. It is more help, guidance to overcome sin in our lives. The evil that He experience as a man in HIS walked here on earth and He overcame. Christ shows us the division of good and evil in life. He came to overcome that division, and to help us know the way. It is HIS way that will not forsake us, and the power of God over all. The rest is in HIM, and choice to take HIS rest in a real sense of the word is up to us. Christ does not forsake us, nor does HIS help and way forsake us.

It is man that chooses their own way, and can't suffer the flesh of lust to ive in righteousness that forsakes them. The seed can grow and mature in hope.

[Wondergirl]

Doesn't this include active homosexuals who have accepted Him?

Even inactive ones. God comes to us where we are.

[Wondergirl]

When I am in KNOWN sin...i am MISERABLE because I am not pleasing the Lord, I am grieving the Holy Spirit....you talk about unhappy!!

You/we are in "known sin" every day. There is no day that goes by where you/we do not commit sins that you/we have committed during past days. You/we even commit new ones you/we hadn't thought of before, as situations in your/our life change.

Can one be a committed Christian and turn your back on God? Of course! We have free will. Life and circumstances change. People change. What we once valued, we may give up and even throw out.

[classyT]

You/we are in "known sin" every day. There is no day that goes by where you/we do not commit sins that you/we have committed during past days. You/we even commit new ones you/we hadn't thought of before, as situations in your/our life change.

Can one be a committed Christian and turn your back on God? Of course! We have free will. Life and circumstances change. People change. What we once valued, we may give up and even throw out.

I stand corrected WG... I meant a habitual sin or a sin cycle. I may sin on a daily basis and NOT even recognize it as sin.. I'm taking about something I refuse to give up even though I know it is wrong.

[Wondergirl]

I stand corrected WG...i meant a habitual sin or a sin cycle. I may sin on a daily basis and NOT even recognize it as sin..i'm taking about something I refuse to give up even though I know it is wrong.

Of course, that is true too -- we have our "pet sins" and refuse to give them up.

[N0help4u]

Yeah that is the distinction.
You are either sinning by doing what you want and not caring
Or you are trying to walk with God but your old ways get in the way.

If you are willfully doing the Frank Sinatra I did it may way thing then you aren't walking with God.

[classyT]

you mean Paul Crouch?

Funny how he "changed his ways" and told everyone that he was living in Hell because of it all AFTER he got caught. (just sayin')

But yes, I would have to agree with you Classy. While the Book teaches us of things that please the Lord, the only real requirement for Christianity is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Savior, is it not?

Actually I was thinking of Ted Haggart! I don't know Paul Crouch... gotta Google him. Well anyway as far as I can tell from the scriptures there is only ONE requirement for salvation and that is accepting the Lord Jesus as savior. I do believe we begin to love the things He loves and hate the things he hates. I think it is normal to want to change and have the fruits of the Spirit in your life. But there are many who believe that works is part of it... I don't.