[Athos]

Does Christianity condone torture in some circumstances?

[jenniepepsi]

Im my own type of christian, I'm not really part of any denomination.

But in my own opinion, as a christian I would say no.

But I can't speak for others and other types of christianity.

Sorry I can't be more help

[Wondergirl]

No.

[Athos]

De Maria once justified torture here on this board in certain circumstances. Is that a Catholic position?

[homesell]

It saddened me to read that more than 50% of "christians " in America said that torture would be justified in certain circumstances. If you can't or won't do something yourself, you cannot condone others doing it. Can these same "christians" stand up and say, "I will personnally torture someone." If they can, they had better check their beliefs against what the Bible says. Jesus says, "when you do it to the least of these(humans) you are doing it to me."
No one in favor of torture has been tortured. No one in favor of abortion has been aborted. THINK people.
Sorry, I rant sometimes. It saddens me that people are labeled "Christians" by the media simply because they went to church when they were little, or their parents were or that they "believe in God" and don't follow some non-christian religion.

[jakester]

Does Christianity condone torture in some circumstances?

Athos - I think you might be incorrectly tying two ideas together: 1) the individual and his personal life as it relates to God and mankind; 2) the government and its role and function as it relates to people.

At a personal level, torture is reprehensible as an action against my fellow man because I am violating the very principle Jesus taught which was to love my neighbor as myself. In fact, I am taught to turn the other cheek to insults and in some cases, physical harm (but that's a different discussion).

Now, at the level of government there exists a different order and responsibility with respect to people of a society. The government functions differently than you or I at a personal level. Government is responsible for creating laws that promote orderliness and justice and God is behind these institutions. Here's a quote from Paul in Romans 13:

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience."

My point in quoting this passage is to bring to light a few ideas.

1) God is behind the institutions of government.
2) Whoever resists the government's authority—whoever goes against the law—resists God.
3) Whoever persists in resisting the government—by extension, God—will incur judgment.

Now at the interpersonal level, you or I do not have God's authority to carry out the same justice that the government has. So in this respect, for me to enact some form of justice upon my fellow man would go beyond any authority granted to me from God at an interpersonal level. The authority God has granted me as an individual is to love my neighbor as myself. If, at an interpersonal level, someone has committed a crime against me, then I have to leave it in the hands of the authorities to carry out any justice. The right of self-defense is something different than what I am talking about here. I am merely saying that when someone wrongs me in way that does not require me to defend myself or someone else's life, I must defer to the higher authority.

At the governmental level, the government is a terror to those who do evil, as Paul puts it. My thought on this is that government's role against evil is to punish it, so that is why Paul refers to the government as a terror. Perhaps that conjures up a lot of mixed ideas and emotions but I believe all that Paul is trying to convey here is that justice is to be expected from the government against criminal wrongdoing…so it is a terror in the sense that if you do evil, you ought to be fearful of what may happen to you.

Is torture right? Again, it is without question wrong at the interpersonal level—it is not right for you or me to torture people. Is it right for the government acting in an official judicial capacity to torture? Well, the bible does not seem to expressly forbid the government from doing so nor does it seem to make allowance for it. To me it seems that the government has the authority to exact justice in a way that would secure peace and orderliness for the greater good of the society in a manner consistent with that authority. Ultimately, it seems difficult to say concretely what the government can or cannot do with respect to its function as a “terror to those who do evil.” But for the sake of the original question, we must always keep in mind that there is a distinction between Christian virtues at the interpersonal level and the authority of government acting upon its God-ordained function as a “terror to those who do evil.” We must always make that distinction in order to avoid confusion.

[Wondergirl]

And, Jakester, if the government uses "enhanced interrogation" (i.e. torture), not to PREVENT imminent acts of terror or to collect actionable intelligence, but to INVENT evidence to declare war to further the greedy interests of those in charge?

[jakester]

And, Jakester, if the government uses "enhanced interrogation" (i.e., torture), not to PREVENT imminent acts of terror or to collect actionable intelligence, but to INVENT evidence to declare war to further the greedy interests of those in charge?

Wondergirl - I totally understand where you are coming from and I agree that for the government to "INVENT" evidence is wrong. Whatever action the government takes it must take with the truth as the backdrop... is what it is doing being done out of falsehood or from the truth? Unfortunately, Wondergirl, we do not always know what is going on behind closed doors... whether what is being done is done out of a lie or the truth. God knows, though... he is not fooled and justice will be served one way or the other.

So, I would expect that the government ought to hold itself accountable in its actions and not hide its real intentions behind righteous-sounding rhetoric... it needs to conduct itself in light of the truth.

Lastly, I have one question for you. Totally off-topic, but how does coming to a complete stop at a stop sign make the world a better place? The only thing that will make this world a better place is for Jesus Christ to come back and take his rightful place as king and rid the world of sin and evil... the reason we as human beings cannot make this world a better place is because of the sin in our own hearts. The gospel promises that one day all will be made right, though.

[homesell]

I agree with you for the most part Jakester, I'm impressed with the maturity and thoughtfulness beyond your years.
However, IF the government uses torture and the tortured person dies(it happens) is it then wrong? Should we congratulate with a slap on the back and a, "good soldier!" to the one that tortures someone within an inch of his life. And the next soldier that tortures one inch too much, that soldier is put on trial, villified, and condemned for his actions. If you haven't seen the movie, "A FEW GOOD MEN" it addresses this question somewhat and is thought provoking.

[Tj3]

Does Christianity condone torture in some circumstances?

No.

[jakester]

I agree with you for the most part Jakester, I'm impressed with the maturity and thoughtfulness beyond your years.
However, IF the government uses torture and the tortured person dies(it happens) is it then wrong? Should we congratulate with a slap on the back and a, "good soldier!" to the one that tortures someone within an inch of his life. And the next soldier that tortures one inch too much, that soldier is put on trial, villified, and condemned for his actions. If you haven't seen the movie, "A FEW GOOD MEN" it addresses this question somewhat and is thought provoking.

Jeff - I know that this is a tough question to answer. Funny you should mention a Few Good Men... I am a U.S. Marine, incidentally. In that movie, Colonel Jessup tried to make a case that his actions were in keeping with the security of the rest of his men on that base in Gitmo. However, as Lt. Kaffee argued in the film, Colonel Jessup had the Marine murdered without the authority to do so. I agree with Lt. Kaffee's assessment because Colonel Jessup did not have the authority to carry out torture or murder.

To me, whether torture results in murder is an issue of intention. Were the torturers acting in an official capacity of authority to torture (via the permission of the President) and was it their intent to kill? For one, if any official is out to torture and kill for no justified reason, then common sense would say that this is wrong and a sin in the eyes of God. But if the conscience of the President is to gain information from a known murderer and criminal to bring persons to justice, is torture in keeping with God's edict that a government is to execute justice on behalf of God? I suppose we may have to delineate the ways in which a society is to appropriately carry out justice against evildoers.

The things that come to my mind are examples in the Old Testament where God tells Israel to go into different lands and destroy the peoples of those lands because of their wickedness. Now, the only reason that Israel was justified in doing so was because God had given the authority to do so. If Israel as a nation had deemed it acceptable to go and do such a thing out of their own authority, what would the reason have been? Most likely out of selfish reasons but when God told them to go and destroy the peoples of different lands, it was because of his displeasure with their evil and he was pronouncing divine judgement upon them. If a reasonable and prudent government sought to bring justice upon a person out of a righteous and pure motivation, wouldn't it seem right that the government should act? Or would it seem more right that a government not act? I really don't think there is a cut and dry answer to these questions but to me I think that God judges the motives of the hearts of all men and all men are answerable to God in such matters... whether we desire justice out of a pure motive or out of an evil motive.

[450donn]

Does Christianity condone torture in some circumstances?

Not sure why you are trying to bate Christians into a non issue debate? I for one am not going to fall into your trap.

[Triund]

Just a thought ran across my mind while reading these posts, that what makes government agencies to use "torture" to extract information. If a person co-operates with the law, there is no need of using force.

Secondly, when people cling to power and the power goes into their heads, they forget that it is God who put them at that seat. And that's the time when they invent the evidence who ever tries to show them a mirror.

[homesell]

Triund you said, "If a person co-operates with the law, there is no need of using force."

Jesus fully cooperated with the Law. If what people did to him wasn't torture, it was pretty close.
If you had been in the crowd that day and only heard of Jesus through what the crowd says, "He is a traitor, a sinner, a blasphemer, He claims to be equal with God", from what you said you would be agreeing to the torture of our Lord.
The people you are referring to didn't even get a jury trial as American Law demands. When Americans decide without trial that another is "guilty" and justifies torture because of that, we are not far from the day when Christians will be found "guilty" of practicing Christianity and be tortured for it. It is already happening in places in Asia.(Voice of the Martyrs) Maybe we need to look at ourselves. If we can torture others to help make sure we maintain our affluent, pleasure-seeking, self-centered lifestyle in America can we really be loving our neighbor and our enemies?

[Athos]

Athos - I think you might be incorrectly tying two ideas together: 1) the individual and his personal life as it relates to God and mankind; 2) the government and its role and function as it relates to people.

At a personal level, torture is reprehensible as an action against my fellow man because I am violating the very principle Jesus taught which was to love my neighbor as myself. In fact, I am taught to turn the other cheek to insults and in some cases, physical harm (but that's a different discussion).

Now, at the level of government there exists a different order and responsibility with respect to people of a society. The government functions differently than you or I at a personal level. Government is responsible for creating laws that promote orderliness and justice and God is behind these institutions. Here's a quote from Paul in Romans 13:

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience."

My point in quoting this passage is to bring to light a few ideas.

1) God is behind the institutions of government.
2) Whoever resists the government's authority—whoever goes against the law—resists God.
3) Whoever persists in resisting the government—by extension, God—will incur judgment.

Now at the interpersonal level, you or I do not have God's authority to carry out the same justice that the government has. So in this respect, for me to enact some form of justice upon my fellow man would go beyond any authority granted to me from God at an interpersonal level. The authority God has granted me as an individual is to love my neighbor as myself. If, at an interpersonal level, someone has committed a crime against me, then I have to leave it in the hands of the authorities to carry out any justice. The right of self-defense is something different than what I am talking about here. I am merely saying that when someone wrongs me in way that does not require me to defend myself or someone else’s life, I must defer to the higher authority.

At the governmental level, the government is a terror to those who do evil, as Paul puts it. My thought on this is that government’s role against evil is to punish it, so that is why Paul refers to the government as a terror. Perhaps that conjures up a lot of mixed ideas and emotions but I believe all that Paul is trying to convey here is that justice is to be expected from the government against criminal wrongdoing…so it is a terror in the sense that if you do evil, you ought to be fearful of what may happen to you.

Is torture right? Again, it is without question wrong at the interpersonal level—it is not right for you or me to torture people. Is it right for the government acting in an official judicial capacity to torture? Well, the bible does not seem to expressly forbid the government from doing so nor does it seem to make allowance for it. To me it seems that the government has the authority to exact justice in a way that would secure peace and orderliness for the greater good of the society in a manner consistent with that authority. Ultimately, it seems difficult to say concretely what the government can or cannot do with respect to its function as a “terror to those who do evil.” But for the sake of the original question, we must always keep in mind that there is a distinction between Christian virtues at the interpersonal level and the authority of government acting upon its God-ordained function as a “terror to those who do evil.” We must always make that distinction in order to avoid confusion.

Jakester, not to put words in your mouth, but you seem to be saying there are two moralities - one for the personal level and another for the governmental level.

It's difficult to know how to answer you since your reading of Christianity couldn't be further off the mark. Where does one begin to answer you? How in the world did you ever come up with such bizarre notions about Christianity? Certainly not in kindergarten or Sunday school where we all learned the basics of right and wrong.

You quoted Paul and the Bible when your true meaning should have referenced Mein Kampf.

I hope I've misread you and, if I have, I will apologize.

[Athos]

Just a thought ran across my mind while reading these posts, that what makes government agencies to use "torture" to extract information. If a person co-operates with the law, there is no need of using force.

So if a person does not cooperate, say by being silent, force (torture) is OK?

See where the logic of your argument leads you?

[homesell]

Jakester,
I think the point athos is making is, you said, "At a personal level, torture is reprehensible as an action against my fellow man because I am violating the very principle Jesus taught which was to love my neighbor as myself. In fact, I am taught to turn the other cheek to insults and in some cases, physical harm (but that's a different discussion)."
Saying that, it is finished. There aren't separate rules for people and governments. Governments are made up of peoples.
I thank God local police even if they saw a person with their own eyes just murder someone(maybe even their partner) they can't just haul them off and kill or torture them to get them to talk about their accomplices. Can this happen in a communist country where there is no God except for the state? Of course. That's why athos mentioned "mein kampf"(fascism) but real close to communism("das Kapital")

[jakester]

Jakester, not to put words in your mouth, but you seem to be saying there are two moralities - one for the personal level and another for the governmental level.

It's difficult to know how to answer you since your reading of Christianity couldn't be further off the mark. Where does one begin to answer you? How in the world did you ever come up with such bizarre notions about Christianity? Certainly not in kindergarten or Sunday school where we all learned the basics of right and wrong.

You quoted Paul and the Bible when your true meaning should have referenced Mein Kampf.

I hope I've misread you and, if I have, I will apologize.

Athos – I understand that you are really upset with me and my comments. I thought I had clearly articulated what I was trying to say and maybe I have but maybe I haven't... I know sometimes we don't communicate clearly and other times we don't listen or read clearly so we've got a 50/50 chance here.

First off, I want to be clear that I never intended to support the idea that just because a government does something in the name of justice that it is just. The government has the responsibility to be just in the true sense of the word. The government is answerable to God, would you agree? Hitler sought to organize the German government in support of his quest to destroy the Jews and unfortunately, his plans were even considered. One of the biggest and darkest moments in world history happened in the name of "justice."

I was trying to make sense of Romans 13 as it relates to the idea of the government carrying out justice. I may have sounded a bit defensive of the government but I assure you that I am not completely for the government but I am for it as a God-ordained institution. Is torture acceptable? To me, I have mixed feelings about it because on the one hand, I respect and value human dignity and would hate to be tortured. But when I think about the idea of terrorists out there raping and killing women, cutting the heads off people, blowing up hospitals and busy intersections full of people, part of me feels that if one person must undergo suffering in order to prevent the suffering of many others, I am not averse to the idea. Maybe that’s because some part of me is really broken morally but maybe some part of me sees that this kind of justice is necessary. Am I saying that torture should be freely given and freely received? No way. If it is to be done, I wish that it would be hardly used ever. But how do you deal with hardened killers who refuse to have their murderous plans thwarted? I’m open to suggestions.

Athos, I have merely attempted to answer your original question. I certainly am not all-knowing or without flaw in my thinking…I am open to learning and I learn from others all of the time. I would love to hear you lay out a compelling argument for why torture is wrong and what we should do to prevent further terrorist attacks. Would you be so kind to do that for my benefit as well as the other readers?

For the record, I never intended to imply that I am supportive of communism or fascism. I don’t think that what happened to the Jews was just at all…I would hope that any rational human being would agree with that. But I hardly think that what our government is doing to terrorists is hardly on par with what Hitler did to the Jews but again, if my logic is wrong then I hope you and Homesell would offer some perspective as to why I am wrong about that.

Lastly, Athos, please refrain from making abusive comments about my early childhood education relative to right and wrong and my lack of understanding with respect to biblical Christianity. You say you learned right and wrong in kindergarten/Sunday school but you unabashedly attack me and reduce me to nothing with your words…have you learned to disagree with someone in a respectful manner while maintaining their dignity as a human being? If you have wisdom to impart to others, share your wisdom out of respect and dignity towards your fellow man…don’t belittle them and undermine them. That’s not loving, I don’t think. I am really committed to the truth of the bible. I take it seriously…I really do. And because I do take it seriously I am willing to listen to your arguments, Athos…to learn from someone who is wiser than I may be on this subject. So please be willing to extend me the courtesy of hearing your thoughts.

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl - Lastly, I have one question for you. Totally off-topic, but how does coming to a complete stop at a stop sign make the world a better place?

** OFF TOPIC -- If we all slid through stop signs, we eventually would do more than slide through them and end up like my elderly aunt who will not stop at a sign or light unless she sees someone close enough to stop for. Imagine the mayhem! And by the way, the law says to make a complete stop at a stop sign. A driver can be ticketed for not doing so.

[homesell]

Jakester,
Just curious. In the sixth chapter of Joshua, there are 2 spies sent into Jericho. If you were a citizen of Jericho and these spies were caught, would you have been in favor of torturing these 2 to find out all they knew? How can something be wrong for you but OK for someone just like you? Remember, it isn't the governments doing the torture. These are human beings like you or I doing unspeakable things in the name of government to other human beings just like you or I.
Jakester, I believe you are saved as I am. Our citizenship is in heaven, heaven is our real country, our home. Let us pray God's will be done whether it is to bless America as he has done so lavishly or destroy it, which is a possibility.