[sndbay]

When you are born there is water - ask any doctor or any mother.

Jesus explained it:

John 3:4-6
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
NKJV

Jesus was sent to wash our flesh of sin which was born of water at birth (Chirst set us free from sin), the spiritual birth is baptism born to newness of life. (Holy Spirit) ( 2 bodies )

I Corinthian 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.


49 as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

[Tj3]

Tom,

elaborate....if you don't mind.

Sure. Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Jesus speaks of two things:

1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit

Then he speaks of two things again:

1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.

The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.

[homesell]

The short version of your question was, "is Baptism necessary for salvation." The short answer is a paraphrase of the question. "Baptism is NOT necessary for Salvation, but Salvation IS necessary for Baptism." In Acts 10:44-48 The Holy Spirit came on ALL who heard the message that Peter was speaking at the home of Cornelius. When the people saw that the listeners had received the Holy Spirit (thus were born of the spirit) they were THEN ordered to be Baptized.
No one in the new testament times told anyone that hadn't ALREADY been saved to be Baptized. It would have been a meaningless gesture.

[cindy_lu_who]

Thank you guys so much. Not only did you answer my question but you gave references so I could read also for myself.

[arcura]

Yes, Baptism is necessary to be go to heaven.
That has been shown here on other threads.
I've been studying that and more for about 70 years.
The bible is clear on that.
Mark 16: 16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
And the bible says that we must be born again by water and the holy spirit, that is being baptized, to go enter the kingdom of heaven.
John 3: no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3. Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4. Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5. Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. "Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.'
Thus the Holy Spirit becomes to dwell with us and we are then a new more spiritual person with the Holy Spirit being our helper and guide.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[homesell]

Fred, good points. Allow me to point out some things also on your points.
1. Mark 16:16 does not say whoever believes and is not baptized will be condemned. If you believe and have the opportunity you will be Baptized.
2. You misquote saying the Bible says we must be born AGAIN of water and the spirit. The "again" is not in there. You quote it correctly in #5. You also add "that is being baptized to go enter into the kingdom of heaven" to you're the Bible says. If it is there quote it.
3. Yes, one must be born again. No mention of Baptism.
4. Continuation. No mention of Baptism
5. The actual quote you meant for number 2. Nicodemus talked about a fleshly birthing again. Jesus tells him you must be born of water(fleshly) AND of spirit (regeneration by God)
6. A continuation of the quote which doesn't mention baptism and seems to support the contention of a fleshly birth and a spiritual birth.
7. Absolutely. One must be born again. And again, no mention of Baptism.

Just some things to consider. We certainly agree one must be born again to enter the kingdom of God

[sndbay]

No one in the new testament times told anyone that hadn't ALREADY been saved to be Baptized. It would have been a meaningless gesture.

All you are saying is that one must confess faith in Christ before being baptized. And I agree, that the confessed faith in Christ is the calling we are sent to answer first . In (Acts 8:36-37) the question of baptism was asked. (See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? ) The answer was (If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. )

Thus then baptized into Christ,we have put on Christ as it is written in (Gal 3:26-27 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.)

[sndbay]

Fred, good points. Allow me to point out some things also on your points.
1. Mark 16:16 does not say whoever believes and is not baptized will be condemned. If you believe and have the opportunity you will be Baptized.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. KJV

homesell, I feel that apprehension to think that both belief and baptism are necessary, can be the lack of accepting both faith and works are necessary. Faith and works are a dwelling within of spirit to be together.

2. You misquote saying the Bible says we must be born AGAIN of water and the spirit. The "again" is not in there. You quote it correctly in #5. You also add "that is being baptized to go enter into the kingdom of heaven" to your The Bible says. If it is there quote it.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. KJV

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. KJV

The image of righteousness is what Christ has brought to us. If we believe in HIS worthyness and all that is written concerning our bolted out sin, and that He set us free. Then we walk in Christ and Christ in us. In both images, we walk in the image of Christ when we believe and are baptized, and that notes the point of (Ye must be Born Again)

1 Corthinians 15:49 as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

[homesell]

Yes sndbay, I know the bible says we must be born again. Without a doubt. What I said was the bible does not say we must be born again of water and the spirit.

[sndbay]

Yes sndbay, I know the bible says we must be born again. without a doubt. What I said was the bible does not say we must be born again of water and the spirit.

Do you believe you must be baptized into Christ as written in (Gal 3:27) because I believe baptism was suffered by Christ unto the act of righteousness, and thus allowing us as in the image of God. That image of God is what we were created to be. Every step of the way in Christ was exampled unto us as the way. And this molds us to HIS way for Live verses death.

Baptism is being buried in Christ, dead in Christ and the sins of this world. So we are able to rise as He was raised.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

the dead= baptized in the Lord

rest in their labours = assurance and trust in what they do in Christ

works follow them = reward of promise

Hebrews10:35-36 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

[Tj3]

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. KJV

homesell, I feel that apprehension to think that both belief and baptism are necessary, can be the lack of accepting both faith and works are necessary. Faith and works are a dwelling within of spirit to be together.

The argument is this. If you take the first half of the verse, it says “He who believes and is baptized is saved”, therefore believing and baptism are the essential requirements for baptism. For the believers in this doctrine, that is a slam-dunk argument.

First, it inappropriate to take a verse out of context, let alone cutting a verse in half and only looking at the first half of the verse. I could come up with a lot of very strange doctrines using that approach. Let me give an example:

Gen 2:16-1716 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
NKJV

If I did the same thing to this passage as is done in this argument in Mark 16:16 shown above, I would stop at the semi-colon and would read:

“Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat“

Of course I have now change the meaning of the passage entirely and negated fully the message that God was giving to Adam and Eve. This is therefore a very dangerous approach and can significantly alter the meanings of many passages throughout scripture.

The second point that I would like to make is that the second part of the 1st half of the verse regarding baptism indiactes that baptism, though important as an act of obedience following salvation, is not essential. Let me illustrate by adding something to this verse:

"He that believeth and is baptized and drives a red car shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Now this verse is still true. It does not say that if you drive a yellow car you are damned. Neither does it require that you drive a red car. The addition of the red car to the passage does not invalidate it, nor does it make the red car mandatory.

[sndbay]

The argument is this. If you take the first half of the verse, it says “He who believes and is baptized is saved”, therefore believing and baptism are the essential requirements for baptism. For the believers in this doctrine, that is a slam-dunk argument.

First, it inappropriate to take a verse out of context, let alone cutting a verse in half and only looking at the first half of the verse. I could come up with a lot of very strange doctrines using that approach. Let me give an example:

Gen 2:16-1716 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
NKJV

What I feel you have illustrated is that this tree of good and evil was less deadly in parts, but instead clearly God said don't eat from it. (that tree good and evil) means (that tree enticing good appearance and beguiling evil deception)

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The second point that I would like to make is that the second part of the 1st half of the verse regarding baptism indiactes that baptism, though important as an act of obedience following salvation, is not essential. Let me illustrate by adding something to this verse:

"He that believeth and is baptized and drives a red car shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Now this verse is still true. It does not say that if you drive a yellow car you are damned. Neither does it require that you drive a red car. The addition of the red car to the passage does not invalidate it, nor does it make the red car mandatory.

Disagree, You have done the same to this verse as you did with the enticing good appearance of the beguiling evil deception found in that tree in which God said not to eat from.
Clearly we have to follow HIS words, and eat only of the Tree of Life.

And in this case clearly confess faith and be baptized because if you do not believe in Christ then neither do you believe in baptism, and will be damned.

Please find your confession of faith in all that is written of Chirst. Faith and suffered righteousness are both belief in the love of Christ.

Gal 3:26-27 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

[homesell]

Right TJ3. If one has faith in the shed blood of Christ there WILL be works. The problem comes up that when some people do works, they think the works are what saves them. There are many people that do good works that don't have the slightest faith in Christ. So you can have works without faith and be unsaved. You cannot have faith and not have works.

[arcura]

homesell.
Thanks, Jeff, but I disagree.
I firmly believe that when the bible says we must be born again of water and spirit it mean Baptism by water and the Holy Spirit abides with us from then on.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Disagree, You have done the same to this verse as you did with the enticing good appearance of the beguiling evil deception found in that tree in which God said not to eat from.
Clearly we have to follow HIS words, and eat only of the Tree of Life.

Right - and that was my point. We cannot take part of a verse and base a doctrine on that part. That is why it is wrong to try to take part of Mark 16:16 to try to support the belief that baptism saves.

And in this case clearly confess faith and be baptized because if you do not believe in Christ then neither do you believe in baptism, and will be damned.

Not true. I have met many who believe in being baptized and have been baptized, but are not saved.

[Tj3]

homesell.
Thanks, Jeff, but I disagree.
I firmly believe that when the bible says we must be born again of water and spirit it mean Baptism by water and the Holy Spirit abides with us from then on.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, Jesus explained that being born of water meant born in the flesh.

[arcura]

And where did He do that?

[sndbay]

Not true. I have met many who believe in being baptized and have been baptized, but are not saved.

Tom, How do you know what is in their heart? And furthermore before making the quoted posted, I would discern when they were baptized and how they were baptized.. The heart of those can not be judged as saved or unsaved. Having doubt in anyone mind and heart is a stumblingblock

When anyone does confess their faith in Christ Jesus, and then are baptized in full body suffered baptism, there is no doubt in my mind that the baptism in newness of life was fulfilled.

Walking in Christ, and having Christ dwell within is a recognized difference to one's self. Growing in HIS grace, with a desire to do HIS Will, and be all He created you to be.

[homesell]

Fred,
Throughout the New Testament, believers are Baptized only after they have already received the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:46-47 is a perfect example of this. If you have the Holy Spirit inside you, you are saved. If you don't you aren't. It's as simple as that. If you aren't saved(have a relationship with Jesus made possible through the indwelling Spirit), there is no point in being baptized.(a ritual) TJ3 is right about many are baptized but only think they are saved. To paraphrase the Bible verse of, "many are called but few are chosen" Try "many are baptized but few are saved."
Don't even get me started on how many were baptized as babies and never showed the slightest inclination toward God. Or the number of people that get baptized several times I guess because it must not have worked the first time.

[sndbay]

Fred,
Throughout the New Testament, believers are Baptized only after they have already recieved the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:46-47 is a perfect example of this. If you have the Holy Spirit inside you, you are saved. If you don't you aren't. It's as simple as that. If you aren't saved(have a relationship with Jesus made possible through the indwelling Spirit), there is no point in being baptized.(a ritual) TJ3 is right about many are baptized but only think they are saved. To paraphrase the Bible verse of, "many are called but few are chosen" Try "many are baptized but few are saved."
Don't even get me started on how many were baptized as babies and never showed the slightest inclination toward God. Or the number of people that get baptized several times I guess because it must not have worked the first time.

Follow Christ! HIS Way! He showed us the Way

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We have to acknowledge the fulfillment and belief in what is written concerning baptism.

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.