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halosix90 · May 4, 2009, 02:02 PM

Hello, I have a light switch that has changed directions on its own. Now, the light turns on when the switch is flipped down, and off when the switch is flipped up. Nothing was changed, it just started doing this all by itself.

Is this even possible? Should I be worried?:eek:

ballengerb1 · May 4, 2009, 02:09 PM

If this is a standard single throw switch and it reversed how it operates I would flip the breaker off at the panel. If you can't replace the switch then have an electrician do it. However, I have never seen this happen. What I have seen is a 3 way switch where one switch has been out of sight suddenly got switched by someone. Please tell us how many wires are attached to the switch, any of them red?

stanfortyman · May 4, 2009, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

What I have seen is a 3 way switch where one switch has been out of sight suddenly got switched by someone.

This is exactly what happened.

halosix90 · May 4, 2009, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by stanfortyman

This is exactly what happened.

I hope that's what it is.
The house we are renting has 3 fuse boxes. 2 are standard fuses and one is a breaker box. There are numerous switches all over the house that do absolutely nothing, from what we have found.
The switch in question doesn't seem to have a another switch that runs the same light.
It just reversed itself. (which I know os impossible) I've been waiting for the landlord to get an electrician here to help. Since I have no other choice to kill all the power in the house, since former owner was an electrician and lets just say he got creative.
I've never seen such a tangled mess of BX in my entire 30 years on this planet.
We have another switch which is more than likely bad, and I would like to replace it, but when I pull the fuse for the circuit its on, other things that are running from the same BX are still on.

Scarey.

ballengerb1 · May 4, 2009, 06:29 PM

You just said the magic word, landlord. Stop all attempts at repair and ask the LL to fix it immediately, since it is a sfaety issue to have a faulty switch. That gets them every time. By the way, those switches that appear to do nothing likely do something, you just don't know what the funky guy intended when he wired it. Those are also likely 3 way switches.

halosix90 · May 4, 2009, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

You just said the magic word, landlord. Stop all attempts at repair and ask the LL to fix it immediately, since it is a sfaety issue to have a faulty switch. That gets them every time. By the way, those switches that appear to do nothing likely do something, you just don't know what the funky guy intended when he wired it. Those are also likely 3 way switches.

Contacted landlord on Friday, he got back to me Saturday and said that he thinks the electrical issues are due to the band playing in the basement. Funny, since the first time we had an issue was long before the band was ever playing. And, the basement where the band plays is run from a completely different circuit. It's a 70-year old house and I think half the wiring is original. Hopefully he gets the electrician here this week as promised... would be nice to know exactly how much of the BX in this house is even running anything!

Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it :)

ballengerb1 · May 4, 2009, 06:45 PM

Sometime one switch of a 3 way is downstairs while the other is upstairs so this could make sense. Old homes have been worked on so many times nothing surprises me anymore. I worked on a dishwasher yesterday and got a shock off the frame, frame was hot not ground. I asked the homeowner and she said she always got a slittle tingle but thought it was just the way it worked.

ohb0b · May 4, 2009, 08:47 PM

Easy way to tell if you have a 3-way switch, without opening it up and looking at the wiring:

If the switch is marked ON and OFF, it is a "2-way" switch.
The correct name for this switch is Single Pole/Single Throw (SPST).

If the switch has no ON/OFF markings, it is a "3-way" switch.
The correct name for this switch is Single Pole/Double Throw (SPDT). These switches are always* installed in pairs, to control a light from two locations, such as the top and bottom of a stairwell, opposite ends of a hallway, or a room with two doors

The SPST and SPDT are the most commonly used switches in residential construction. There are other types of switches: DPST, similar in function to the SPST, but used for 240 volt circuits. You may have one on a water heater or furnace, and DPDT, or "4-way," which is used when you want to control a light from 3 or more locations. DPDT's are seldom used. It is usually much easier to install a "Lightolier" or other programmable switch if you need multiple control points.

* An SPDT switch CAN be used in a single location just to turn a light off or on. But since it costs a little more, it usually isn't. But who knows, the landlord could have had one laying around and decided to use it instead of buying a new switch.

ohb0b · May 4, 2009, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

I asked the homeowner and she said she always got a slittle tingle but thought it was just the way it worked.

Reminds me of a call I had to a local farm:

There was a corrugated metal outbuilding, fed by a single 20 amp circuit. There was also a water line run out to the building.

The farmer told me whenever he touched the building wall and the water pipe at the same time, he got a shock. That didn't bother him, because he "had sense enough not to touch them both at the same time," but his electric bill had been high for the past few months, and he wondered if the two conditions were related.

The water terminated in a single hose bib about three feet above the ground. It was not bonded to the building. I connected my Wiggy between the building and the hose bib, and measured 120 volts.

The building was supplied by an old 2-wire UF cable (without a ground wire) and wired in the old cloth covered Romex.

Sure enough, I found a spot where the cloth braid had worn away, and the hot conductor was in direct contact with the corrugated metal. There was enough resistance back to the ground point at the service to keep the breaker from tripping, but it sure ran up his electric bill!

stanfortyman · May 5, 2009, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by halosix90

There are numerous switches all over the house that do absolutely nothing, from what we have found.

THIS is the other key piece of information. They do something, you just do not know what it is.

Also, ballengerb is absolutely correct. You should not be touching the electric in this house other than flipping switches. You should not even be changing fuses.

halosix90 · May 5, 2009, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by ohb0b

Easy way to tell if you have a 3-way switch, without opening it up and looking at the wiring:

If the switch is marked ON and OFF, it is a "2-way" switch.
The correct name for this switch is Single Pole/Single Throw (SPST).

If the switch has no ON/OFF markings, it is a "3-way" switch.
The correct name for this switch is Single Pole/Double Throw (SPDT). These switches are always* installed in pairs, to control a light from two locations, such as the top and bottom of a stairwell, opposite ends of a hallway, or a room with two doors

The SPST and SPDT are the most commonly used switches in residential construction. There are other types of switches: DPST, similar in function to the SPST, but used for 240 volt circuits. You may have one on a water heater or furnace, and DPDT, or "4-way," which is used when you want to control a light from 3 or more locations. DPDT's are seldom used. It is usually much easier to install a "Lightolier" or other programmable switch if you need multiple control points.

* An SPDT switch CAN be used in a single location just to turn a light off or on. But since it costs a little more, it usually isn't. But who knows, the landlord could have had one laying around and decided to use it instead of buying a new switch.

There are no ON or OFF markings, but the light that stays constantly on is controlled by one switch that is located on panel with 2 other switches. The other 2 switches appear to either do nothing or they are dead. The switch that suddenly reversed itself is a single switch that's on a different circuit from the one that won't turn off. We haven't had any other problems with any electrical in the house.

The really scary part is that I don't think the landlord has a clue about what all is running in this house. He did not even know that everything in the house is electric except for the furnace until we told him. I'm kind of starting to think that he's afraid to see what an electrician would have to say about the house. I know that BX cable is still okay to use, but the amount of it and the way its run all over the place (exposed, and dangling unsupported in some spots) is a little weird... although I don't know since I'm definitely no electrician :)

Thanks guys for all your input so far, it's much appreciated!

stanfortyman · May 5, 2009, 03:25 PM

Who knows where the other 3-way switch is. It could be in another apartment for all you know.
Who knows how this house was split up when it was made into apartments.

There is way too much that is unknown, and considering all your descriptions it can be nothing else but a simple 3-way switching setup.

ballengerb1 · May 5, 2009, 08:14 PM

Back in post #2 I asked for the colors and number of wires in the switch box and am waiting. Although I suspected a 3 way all along you can not assume anything with wiring and the absences of an ON/OFF marking on a switch means nothing unless you also want to assume some dim witt didn't use a 3 way switch on a single switch circuit. Never assume with power and never work on a rented unit if you are the tenant.

halosix90 · May 6, 2009, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

Back in post #2 I asked for the colors and number of wires in the switch box and am waiting. Although I suspected a 3 way all along you can not assume anything with wiring and the absences of an ON/OFF marking on a switch means nothing unless you also want to assume some dim witt didn't use a 3 way switch on a single switch circuit. Never assume with power and never work on a rented unit if you are the tenant.

I completely agree with you on not doing work on my rented house that is the landlord's responsibility. But, when the landlord does not take any action, what other choice do I have? Don't want to be living with a safety hazard for an extended period.

Once I'm back at home (I'm at work right now), I can take a look and see what's going on in the switch box as far as how many wires and what color they are.

I would never want to assume anything when dealing with power... especially not in this house with it's crazy wiring! :eek:

ballengerb1 · May 6, 2009, 03:21 PM

If you check the wires, please do, we can tell if this is a 3way, most of us believe it is. If it's a 3 way there is no danger that I can see other than someone may shut off your lights unexpectedly, well I guess that is a dangerous situation. If it's a 3 way we may be able to help you convert it to just the switch in your area.