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KingsX · Jan 2, 2009, 11:14 AM

I have knob and tube. All of my outlets on the main floor are in the floor as opposed to the wall. I have direct access to the boxes from the basement. The outlets aren't grounded (except for some, you'll see later). Pretty much all of the outlets are really old, and fairly worn out. This makes me nervous. In my daughter's room, I replaced the outlet with a GFCI. So I started wondering, since I have access to the boxes from below and I plan on replacing the rest of the outlets (like my daughter's), could I connect a ground from these outlets to my water pipe? In the basement, there is a sub panel right next to the original 2 fuses for the knob and tube. It is a panel that powers my fridge, stove, microwave and garage. This panel is grounded, and connected to the water pipe. There is a ground wire that skips over my water meter as well. The original knob and tube (probably installed by Nikola Tesla himself as a showcase :) is only 2 15 amp circuits. One controls all the outlets (small house, only one per room, 6 in total) with the basement lights (which is about 5 fixtures). The other controls all the lights on the main floor (7 fixtures).

Anyway, I'm rambling. I hope I gave enough info to make sense. I plan on replacing all the electrical in the house soon, but I wanted peace of mind in the meantime. Thanks again guys!

andrewc24301 · Jan 3, 2009, 12:31 AM

It might be worth it to have someone come in an upgrade your panel. Then go around and rip out all that old knob and tube and just replace it with modern day wire.

If it's feasible, I'd also recommend putting the outlets in the wall.

And by all means, replace outlets that feel "loose" when you plug something in. Loose plugs and connections are fire hazards.

If you've got some money to burn, shoot for a 200 AMP service if you replace the panel. Then you can consolidate the sub panel and fuse box, as well as have additional room for a heat pump or something down the road.

Make sure all ground wires go to a ground rod... in the ground...

tkrussell · Jan 3, 2009, 05:34 AM

Please explain this:

Originally Posted by andrewc24301

Make sure all ground wires go to a ground rod.... in the ground....

As this is not entirely true, and only allowed under very specific circumstances.

The ground rod must be the existing grounding electrode for the service, not an added rod.

If a ground wire can be run from new 3 wire outlets connected to a two wire system, why not run new 3 wire cable?

Please be careful giving advice on grounding as this is a complicated issue.

KingsX · Jan 3, 2009, 10:00 AM

To run new wire seems a lot more difficult (actually this is my plan eventually). This is really more of an temporary ground fix until I replace all the electrical in the house. Maybe I should just leave it alone for now and when I replace all of it, I won't have to worry.

andrewc24301 · Jan 3, 2009, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by tkrussell

The ground rod must be the existing grounding electrode for the service, not an added rod.

If I read what you are saying correctly, I think that's what I meant, however tk, you are correct, I didn't write it in the correct context, and I can see how my version would have screwed something up.

I stand corrected.

At the very least, in the mean time, replace the outlets that are loose with new ones. Make sure you get the two prong outlets if they are not grounded.

In any event, I wouldn't mess with the knob and tube unless you are replacing wire in the whole circuit. If your service is not grounded, then you need to get an electrican out there to evaluate the whole thing, and repair as nessesary. If it were my house, Id have the service upgraded, consoldate the sub feed and fuse box, and replace all knob and tube circuits, and bring everything up to code.

Have it inspected and sleep better at night. All this might even help your homeowners insurance as well.

KingsX · Jan 3, 2009, 08:34 PM

Thanks for the advice. In Canada, you can no longer get the two prong outlets. But with my GFCI that I installed in my daughter's room, was a bunch of stickers that say "no equipment ground", which I put on all of the outlets I've replaced so far. And after reviewing the electrical code for my area, this is exactly what I am supposed to do. All three prong outlets that aren't grounded, have to be marked that way.

In regards to the upgrade, that's what I'm going to do. I've already made a wiring plan diagram. I wish there was a way to upload it for you guys to review it. I'll figure that out at some point and post it here.

tkrussell · Jan 4, 2009, 06:30 AM

If you use "POST REPLY" button, or "Advanced" button, in the upper menu you will see a paper clip and an arrow. Clicking on the arrow will produce a list of allowed file formats and the allowed sizes of each file type.

For a diagram, JPEG or PDF works well. I will do diagrams with MS Word Draw Tool, then use Paint to size it and save as JPEG.

So CEC does not allow the added equipment ground wire? Just GFI? I agree, if so, a GFI protected outlet with no equipment ground is better than a poorly or improperly connected equipment ground.

KingsX · Jan 4, 2009, 11:26 AM

Hey tk, I should have clarified myself. I know how to post something to the forum, but I used MS Visio, which saves the files in a proprietary format, which means everyone would need Visio to see it. So what I meant was I have to figure out a way to save or export to jpeg so you guys to see it. Once I figure that out, I'm golden.

But I do have a related question. I'm planning on putting in three smoke detectors on the main floor. The house is two bedroom, so I thought one in each room and one in the hallway. My wife has concerns about a fire originating in the electrical system, that would compromise the detectors. They have battery backups I assume? Otherwise, I'm thinking of putting battery operated detectors in the room too along with the others. May seem like overkill, but I think I'd sleep better. What are your thoughts?