[De Maria]

Then I presume that you have read "Glories of Mary".

I sure have. A wonderful book and a treasure of Catholic devotion to Mary.

Here are quotes, with page references:

"At the command of Mary all obey-even God."

That is true. I'll go even further. At the suggestion of Mary, all obey, even God.

Let me take you to Scripture. Jesus is God, is He not?
Luke 2:51
And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

Jesus was subject to whom? To Joseph and Mary.

And lets look at the Wedding at Cana:

John 2

1And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: 2And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

Mary, Jesus and His disciples were at a wedding feast.

3And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.


And Mary said to Jesus, "they have no wine". Is this a command? Is this a request? No, this is merely an observation.

What confidence this woman has that her intentions will be fulfilled.

4Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

What is this? Is this an objection from the PERFECT Son? I don't believe so, but many Protestants characterize it thus.

To me it is merely Our Lord jesting with His Mother. After all, there at a party.

5His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

At any rate, His mother doesn't take it seriously. She doesn't even acknowledge it. She simply turns around and says, "do as He tells you."

Note that she doesn't say, "Do MY will." She says, "Obey Him." "Do what Jesus tells you."

Mary always points us to Jesus and Mary always COMMANDS us to do God's will.

Page 155 in the paperback version that I have, a short ways into Chapter VI.

"The Way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary."

Jesus Christ is our salvation and salvation came through Mary.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And unless you accept Mary as your mother, you will not be at war with the dragon. Because it is HER seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Page 143 in the paperback, but if you read the entirety of Chapter V, you will see this restated over and over and over many times so that it is abundantly clear.

I didn't deny it. I embrace that teaching. It is from Scripture. This is why THE WORD OF GOD calls Mary blessed amongst women.

"The Holy Church carefully teaches us her children with what attention and confidence we should unceasingly have recourse to this loving protectress; and for this reason commands a worship peculiar to Mary"

Here he is using the word "worship" in its archaic sense. This can be verified if we look at several types of governors who receive worship from regular folk even today:

The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship," although Americans would say "Your Honor." This doesn't mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.
Saint Worship?

- Immediately after the reference to worship, on page 107, he refers to here as the "Divine Mother" (his capitalization. This term is used from end of the book to the other.

Have you ever heard the term, "to err is human, to forgive divine". Does that mean that we believe everyone who forgives is God? Of course not!

Divine is here used as an endearment. In the Latin languages, "divina" is frequently used to speak of any woman whom we love. Be it wife, mother, daughter.

Related to the above, the word Divine also means "beautiful" and in that sense, we also use it to refer to Mary, O beautiful mother and to the women we love.

In Mary's however, it is exclusively used because she is the only Mother who gave birth to the Divine God. It is a reference to her Divine MATERNITY. Therefore, Divine Mother.

- Page 112 and elsewhere suggests that her mercy never fails, but because Jesus is also our judge, and thus it is better to go to Mary than to Jesus for salvation since we can be assured of her mercy and compassion

Yeah. He went over the top there. But he's just a fallible man. He isn't the infallible Church.

- She can be blasphemed (p114) someone which can only be done against God

Not so. Any Saint can be blasphemed. It is calling that which is holy, unholy. Saints are holy.

The question has been raised whether blasphemy against the saints differs in kind from that uttered immediately against God. While De Lugo thinks that such a difference obtains (De Poenit., disp. xvi, n. 178 sqq.) the opposite opinion of St. Alphonsus seems more tenable, for as the latter theologian observes, the saints, ordinarily speaking, are not blasphemed because of their own excellence but because of their close relationship to God (Theol. Moral., lib. IV, n. 132).
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Blasphemy

- Though Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for our salvation, we can only be saved through Mary since she dispenses the blood (P.116)

I'd like to see the quote. I don't believe he would have used the word "only" in this regard. And this is the reason.

Although Protestants believe that the only one who suffered on Calvary that day was Jesus. We believe, because of her deep love for her Son, that Mary also suffered on that Cross.

Anyone who has children can perhaps empathize with this. I know I can. There's a song, "were you there" which touches upon this idea. But it can't come anywhere near the fact that this MOTHER watched her Son and her God being tortured and crucified.

Two people suffered on the Cross that day, Jesus and His Mother.

- She conquered Satan, hell and the demons and crushed the head of Satan (which scripture says was Jesus). p.117

Actually, the older text says it would be the Woman:

Genesis 3 15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

We believe she crushed his head through Her Seed.

- At the name of Mary, the devils tremble and every knee bows (p.123)

Because Mary is always accompanied by her Son.

Now that I have shown that what you called impossible to be true, please answer my question -

Except I've shown you that what you said was true is impossible.

when tradition contradicts scripture, or contradicts itself, what do you do?

Question was answered in the Scripture and Tradition thread.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post1446054

This thread deals with your problems with St. Alphonsus Liguori.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

My Father St. Alphonsus,

In a startling turn of events, apparently I have become your advocate here as you have been my heavenly advocate for so many years.

Praise God!

[Akoue]

Yes, you have. And that was really nice, by the way.

[De Maria]

Yes, you have. And that was really nice, by the way.

Thanks Akoue. I tried to say "Guten nacht" on the other thread but it got closed. Anyway, "schlaf gut" and I'll see you next chance. I'm not sure how much I'll post in the next few days however.

Buenas noches to all and to all a good night.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[JoeT777]

“At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.”
Page 155 in the paperback version that I have, a short ways into Chapter VI.

St. Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands.


Miss quoted: Above is the qoute in context. St. Liguori was quoting somebody else and explained what he meant.

Though Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for our salvation, we can only be saved through Mary since she dispenses the blood (P.116)

The word blood doesn't appear between pages 113 and 125.

"The Way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary."
Page 143 in the paperback, but if you read the entirety of Chapter V, you will see this restated over and over and over many times so that it is abundantly clear.

I couldn't find the quote you attributed to Chapter V, but I did find the following:

No one denies that Jesus Christ is our only mediator of justice, and that he by his merits has obtained our reconciliation with God.

Don't you always complain that Catholics put priests as “mediators” when there can only be one mediator. Very Catholic quote, very orthodox faith. Unlike what you were trying to portray.

- She can be blasphemed (p114) someone which can only be done against God

The word blasphemed only appears one time on page 572 in the entire book. Content of page 114 and the page each side of 114 is a prayer - The subject of anything similar act of blaspheming is discussed.

I looked in both versions and found similar results in each.

It makes you question the person who posted these misquotes. It's not just slopy work, there appears to be a genuine desire to mislead the reader to a false conclusion. What do we usually call this?

JoeT

[De Maria]

St. Bernardine fears not to utter this sentence; meaning indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands.


Miss quoted: Above is the qoute in context. St. Liguori was quoting somebody else and explained what he meant.




The word blood dosn't appear between pages 113 and 125.



I couldn’t find the quote you attributed to Chapter V, but I did find the following:

No one denies that Jesus Christ is our only mediator of justice, and that he by his merits has obtained our reconciliation with God.

Don’t you always complain that Catholics put priests as “mediators” when there can only be one mediator. Very Catholic quote, very orthodox faith. Unlike what you were trying to portray.



The word blasphemed only appears one time on page 572 in the entire book. Content of page 114 and the page each side of 114 is a prayer - The subject of anything similar act of blaspheming is discussed.

I looked in both versions and found similar results in each.

It makes you question the person who posted these misquotes. It's not just slopy work, there appears to be a genuine desire to mislead the reader to a false conclusion. What do we usually call this?

JoeT

Excellent Joe! You must be a speed reader.

[arcura]

Joe,
I think I will stand by that you said, "there appears to be a genuine desire to mislead the reader to a false conclusion." For I have often seen persons do that here and on other boards.
Some people will twist almost anything they can to fit what they want to believe.
If that shoe fits it will squeak.
Peace and kindness,
Fred