[valinors_sorrow]

I think the people interested in a religious debate about God's intentions in general (which can include specifically about suicide) need to think long and clear about highjacking a perfectly good thread here about assisted suicide being a CRIME, not a sin. I introduced it in passing as a sin as it related to it remaining a crime, and frankly I had second thoughts about even that. :eek:

I hear that people here get tired of religious debate and I can see why when this topic interlopes as it does. Isn't it just as easy to begin a new thread as it is to pull an existing one off topic? Let me gently remind that there is already a thread about things going off topic that is still viable and plenty of room in the religion section for a new thread. So do you want to talk about it being a crime or not..

There!. huff puff puff LOL :p

[valinors_sorrow]

If you can't help some one die with dignity what alternatives are there?

If you have a living will that prohibits feeding you without your consent and you are prepared to stop eating when the time comes, why would someone else need to be that involved? Last time I checked you can't be arrested for refusing to eat... am I still missing something here?

[Cassie]

This is such a tough issue. Yes, suicide is painful for the loved ones left behind. Watching a loved one die a slow painful death is also painful for the loved ones watching each day. I believe committing suicide because one can no longer handle the physical pain is different than suicide because of mental suffering. There is often no help for the physical pain in terminal illnesses, and death is near. It should be your own decision whether you want to continue to suffer. I have seen hospice patients in agony because of the burden they put on their families, both financially and mentally just for a few more days or weeks of breathing... not living. We all want to leave this world behind with dignity and knowing our loved ones remember us that way.

When I say suicide is different for the physical pain versus the mental pain, I no way mean to understate the feeling of one that is in anguish mentally. The pain of feeling hopeless and there is no reason to live is just as painful as if you have cancer eating you from the inside out. There is help for that pain.

As in all walks of life, not every answer is for everyone. Some feel God would not want them to keep suffering. Others feel God will punish them for not wanting to continue to suffer. I want to think my loving God would understand the pain to be too great to endure.

[talaniman]

Just to clarify-my main purpose of asking this question was to put light on archaic laws and behavior that lacks compassion and understanding. Pain and suffering is a part of being human but to know that you are terminally ill (going to die soon) and still have to endure the pain of your illness seems so uncaring to me. An to have some one say There's nothing you can do reeks of an attitude that isolates and strips the dignity of a once vibrant productive human being. Maybe we should have a will that spells out how we are to be treated when ill, but to my knowledge if you are not hooked to a machine and pain and agony are your constant companion should you have to wait for death or can you just ask someone to relieve you of your pain. Is it suicide knowing you are going to die or is it compassion to relieve the suffering of another?

[J_9]

Okay, to clarify a few things:

There is a Living Will, or as hospitals like to call it an Advanced Directive (AD). When you go into the hopsital for whatever reason they are supposed to ask if you have an AD. If so, this is placed in the very front of your chart so that the docs and nurses know that you do not want to be kept alive using artificial means.

There is also a Do Not Recussitate Order (DNR) that specifically states that no heroic measures are to be taken in the even of a catastrophic illness (heart attack, kidney failure, etc).

If you have these in the front of your chart the docs and nurses are supposed to let you die with dignity. Just let you go. In the case of Terry Schiavo, she did not have any of these. Therefore, most people think “assisted suicide.”

If these are in the front of your chart, the docs and nurses only have to make sure you are comfortable until your time comes. This would not be assisted suicide, this would be considered dying with dignity.

[ScottGem]

I think the people interested in a religious debate about God's intentions in general (which can include specifically about suicide) need to think long and clear about highjacking a perfectly good thread here about assisted suicide being a CRIME, not a sin.

You make a good point. Demon's note was in a PM to me. But I feel its important that discussions be kept public. So I answered him here.

The thing is many people can't completely separate sin from crime. One must also remember that much of our laws are based on ethics handed down by religion. Thou shalt not kill, being the operative source here.

[Cassie]

If you have a living will and go to the hospital that takes care of life support systems takes care of one area. All terminally ill patients do not go on life support and suffer a lot before dying. I do not think it should be a crime if that person wants to die without going through the "degrading, painful, suffering" part of the dying process. If a person has been diagnosed "terminally Ill" by more than one physican, and it is their choice, there should be a legal document they can sign and a doctor could handle the rest.

Just my opinion, I hate to see anyone suffer.

[Hope12]

Our Creator is the source of life, and he has decreed that human life is precious, sacred. Gen. 9:5; Ps. 36:9 Suicide, which means the taking of one’s own life, or killing oneself, is condemned by the Bible. Such intentional act is self-murder. Ex. 20:13; 1 John 3:15 The few suicides mentioned in the Bible are of those who were unfaithful to God and who failed to consider that their lives really belonged to God.—1 Sam. 31:4; 2 Sam. 17:5-14, 23; 1 Ki. 16:18; Matt. 27:5.

One who intentionally takes his own life does so in utter disregard for the sacredness of life; he becomes blood guilty. When one commits suicide while in possession of one’s mental faculties, this shows one to be void of morality, lacking faith, having no fear of God. It is a cowardly act, where one refuses to face up to the problems and responsibilities of life. If the person claimed to be a true Christian, the act would violently break his relationship with God. Suicide may be the giving in to pressures from demons who encourage self-destruction. Matt. 17:14-18 This extremely self-centered act of murder manifests no love for one’s surviving family members, no love for one’s congregation and friends, and no love even for the surrounding community, as it brings shame and distress of mind upon all associates. Mark 12:31.

When someone commits suicide, family members and close friends suffer severe mental turmoil. Many blame themselves for the tragedy. They say such things as: ‘If only I had spent a little more time with him that day,’ ‘If only I had held my tongue that time,’ ‘If only I had done a little more to help him.’ The implication is, ‘If only I had done this or that, my loved one would still be here.’ Is it fair, though, to assume the blame for the suicide of another?

Having said this about those who commit suicide how much worse it is for another to assist in suicide. True, some countries such as the Netherlands became the first nation formally to legalize assisted suicide, reports Rotterdam’s NRC Handelsblad. The Dutch Senate approved the so-called mercy killing bill by a vote of 46 to 28. The legislation allows physicians to help end the lives of patients who are terminally ill or facing unremitting and unbearable “suffering.” Dutch lawmakers require that euthanasia patients meet the following strict guidelines: The patient’s request must be voluntary. The patient and doctor must agree that there is no reasonable alternative solution that is acceptable to the patient. At least one independent doctor must examine the patient. And the euthanasia must be performed in a medically acceptable manner.

Does that make it right and legal in God’s eyes? No it does not and neither should it be legal in the eyes of the courts.

These Laws of God are found in The Bible book of Deuteronomy.
IV. Criminal laws
A. Crimes against the state
1. Bribery, perverting justice 16:19, 20
2. Perjury 5:20
B. Crimes against morality
1. Adultery 5:18; 22:22-24
2. Unlawful marriage 22:30; 27:20, 22, 23
C. Crimes against the person
1. Murder and assault 5:17; 27:24
2. Rape and seduction 22:25-29
V. Humane laws
A. Kindness toward animals 25:4; 22:6, 7
B. Consideration for the 24:6, 10-18
Unfortunate
C. Building safety code 22:8
D. Treatment of dependent 15:12-15; 21:10-14;
Classes, including slaves 27:18, 19
And captives

Remember when Cain murdered his brother. God called it murder and when another assists someone else to commit suicide it is also murder. The taking of someone else’s life. Life does not belong to us to take.

Just my humble opinion.
Take care,
Hope12
:)

[talaniman]

Just for my own information -A true Christian must watch a loved one waste away due to disease (And that is what we are talking about) which is terminal and painful?

[jduke44]

I can't imagine what it would be like to go through what you went through, J_9, so what I am about to say is in no way disrespect to yours or other's situation.

I have a hard time knowing how far someone would have to be terminally ill to have the laws agree that it wasn't murder. What I mean is, with the technology we have now, it seems there may always be hope, not to the person itself but to the courts. There is a commercial that a guy had cancer and he says when no other doctor could do anything, I found the (whatever Cancer Center they are advertising) and they had a team of doctors working round the clock. My point is, where would the line be drawn where people wouldn't be ending other's lives prematurely and more frequently. I don't remember the fulll story but Dr. Kavorkian was ending a lot of lives. If a law had been passed that this was OK, how many others would have done this when maybe they didn't need to. Who determines that?

When my wife and I went to have papers drawn for the proxy and living will, they had told me that nothing would be done until 1 year from the time I would be put on life support. That is probably so that my wife wouldn't make a quick decision on saying to pull the plug when in fact I could still pull out of it (not that she would). I think the laws are placed there so that this doesn't happen. I am not saying I agree, I am just trying to give another view point.

My answer would have to be if there was some absolute way of knowing that that person's life would end and there was no way of curing it, then assisted suicide should not be considered murder. I think compassion and dignity should play a role in that. With the way people are in this world, I don't l know if that could be determined beyond a shadow of doubt. I hope this makes sense.

[ScottGem]

Life does not belong to us to take.

Rest of post best not be repeated

Yet another example of why I don't believe in organized religion. Any institution that would require its adherents to suffer the pain and indignity of a terminal illness holds no attraction to me.

[educatedhorse_2005]

I didn't want this thread turned into relgious debate that is why I PM you scott.

I have seen uncles grand parents even parents die of cancer heart disease.
Brain tumors all sorts of things.
But still with every one of them they wanted to hang on long enough to see all there kids and grandkids one last time.
When that happened it was just a matter of hours before they died peaceful

[ScottGem]

I have seen uncles grand parents even parents die of cancer heart disease.
brain tumors all sorts of things.
But still with every one of them they wanted to hang on long enough to see all there kids and grandkids one last time.
When that happened it was just a matter of hours before they died peaceful

That's fine, that's THEIR choice! They are entitled to their choice. If their choice is to live with the condition to accomplish some goal, then that's fine. However, if their choice is not hang on and endure the pain and suffering then they should be entitled to that choice as well.

[valinors_sorrow]

Those who think it's a sin and the equivalency to murder are entitled to their beliefs. And those who don't are equally entitled to theirs. And those who think it's a slippery slope, and attempt to sort of straddle the line are entitled to theirs as well. And anyone I accidentally left out are entitled to their opinion too. And I would like to thank my producer and director and my stylist and my, no wait, wrong thread! :eek: And since there are a whole lot of folks on either side of the line, I seriously doubt the legal system will be persuaded to change the laws anytime soon, at least not in my lifetime. ;)

(passes out "chill pills" to anyone interested, saying quietly, "nevermind that they look a whole lot like skittles!") :p

[educatedhorse_2005]

OK mom I will be nice.

As long as the laws it is illegal it is illegal.

Enough said

[TTHOMPSONMANGINA]

As long as the person assisting doesn't pull the trigger or push the button and that part is left up to the person committing suicide its not a crime..

[CaptainForest]

And since there are a whole lot of folks on either side of the line, I seriously doubt the legal system will be persuaded to change the laws anytime soon, at least not in my lifetime. ;)

I disagree with that, unless you are planning on dying within 20 years or so.

With the baby boomers aging more and more, government will focus more on health care and I believe the assisted suicide will be debated and possible legislated. If not legislated, then at least openly debated unlike what we have had in the past…

[Nez]

Hope 12:

When one commits suicide while in possession of one’s mental faculties, this shows one to be void of morality, lacking faith, having no fear of God. It is a cowardly act, where one refuses to face up to the problems and responsibilities of life.


Total crap.I will not write anymore as I might get thrown out of AMHD. :mad:

[valinors_sorrow]

When one commits suicide while in possession of one's mental faculties, this shows one to be void of morality, lacking faith, having no fear of God. It is a cowardly act, where one refuses to face up to the problems and responsibilities of life.

corrected as per Talaniman's comment:
Wow Hope... that's some strong sentiment you have there! And you are certainly entitled to your beliefs.

Folks who make those sorts of judgements about suicide have, whenever I asked them, always owned up to the fact that they have not known the kind of pain possible in the extreme end of the human range. If I am wrong, please correct me? If not, for your sake (and everyone's) I hope you never do. I mean that sincerely... no sarcasm in this at all. I would gently suggest that it really is a matter of... if you've not experienced it, then you don't know and maybe that thing about walking in someone's shoes might be in order here?

And just as often they are people who have been devastated by a suicide too or witnessed someone who has been and so I chalk a great deal of it off to the hurt talking... its easy to condemn the dead, eh? But what about the ones who survived their own suicide? Have they nothing to teach us?

[talaniman]

:) Have another cup of coffee Val, Hope 12 made the statement, Nez replied to it:cool: :) Its ruff this early:D