[Romefalls19]

Ok guys, I am coming to you for a little advice on a situation. Background first

- Ex has been in rehab the entire duration of the relationship
- My fiancé never was telling the ex's parents about how serious it was(good thing)
- He just found out we got engaged this week( we didn't care to tell that family as it's none of their business)
- They have 2 children together
- He was EXTREMELY abusive broke a door over her head, threw her against a wall, mentally abused her on many occassions(she is still afraid of him alone and uncomfortable when he is around)
- Has told her before "if you bring another guy around my kids I'll kill you"


Now, he is getting his first overnight visit next weekend and wants the girls, which we are happy to do because we both won't prevent him from seeing his children. Then his mom told us "he would like to meet with rome as well as you on Saturday at our house" which meeting at his "turf" doesn't sound like a very good idea. As well as I could never shake his hand because my father has told me shaking hands is a signal of respect and I could never respect a guy who hits a woman.

I was wondering what you guys thought about this, should we go and meet or not? Many people have said it's not a good idea and with him just finding out that his ex wife got engaged.

[Dragonfly1234]

If you can't shake his hand and you know you don't respect him, he will sense that and it will only create tension. Tension will then build and the girls will feel it and this will hinder the chance of everyone being civil. One persone will feed off another person's frustrations and things can escalate. If you can't fake being fine with him, don't go meet him. I speak from experience.

[Romefalls19]

I just personally don't think I could meet him and be civil at this time. Everything is far to fresh with him with finding out everything. I could in the future but I'll never shake his hand because I don't respect woman abusers

[asking]

Hi Rome,
This is important and I think your instincts are absolutely right. I was married to a similar man and I don't think you should accept his invitation to meet at his parents' house. I would recommend meeting (ever) only with a specific agenda and then somewhere neutral, like a coffee shop. He is likely to try to charm you and, eventually, try to sow discord between you and your fiancée. Or between one of you and the kids. The more he knows about you and her and your relationship, the more easily he can do that, so do not share ANY information with him unless he absolutely has to have it.

My father continued to maintain a good relationship with my ex after we were divorced and I tried to remain neutral about this, but I finally had to admit to myself that their being "friends" felt like a betrayal to me. (Ultimately, I sat him down, detailed the abuse and told him how I felt and he listened and toned own his relationship with my ex.) When my father died, I found recent letters from my ex complaining about me...

Your fiancée may be saying it's fine because that's the "nice" and proper thing to do, but I feel that you would be betraying her to extend the hand of friendship to this man. He is her worst enemy and your loyalty should be totally with her. There is probably no one else in the world besides him who would go out of their way to hurt her.

And then there's always the possibility he'll "lose it" and do something violent or explode and make a scene. Or he might later said that you said or did something you didn't. It's harder for him to do that if you weren't even there.

Don't meet at his house certainly. At some point it would be polite to meet him, look him in the eye, and say "hello" --just so he can't tell people you wouldn't -- but I don't think you need to shake his hand or for this to last more than 2 minutes.

My two cents. Good luck!

[Romefalls19]

Asking, thank you so much for your reply! And my fiancée does not wish to meet him at all, she is really uncomfortable being around him and I completely understand how she feels. At no point would my loyalty ever waiver from her, I know the abuse he put her through and have held her through the night when she was crying from telling what happened(at her request only)

We also don't tell anyone on his family anything about our relationship. They just found out we got engaged and we've been engaged since mid Sept. We don't tell them to try and prevent as much confrontation as possible. At no point could me and him ever be friends, looking in the eye I can do and a simple chat lastign 2 minutes that's fine. To ask to meet I feel was for unseen agendas that could only cause more problems than solutions

[asking]

If you can't shake his hand and you know you don't respect him, he will sense that and it will only create tension. Tension will then build and the girls will feel it and this will hinder the chance of everyone being civil. One persone will feed off of another person's frustrations and things can escalate. If you can't fake being fine with him, don't go meet him. I speak from experience.

I totally agree it will create tension not to shake hands, but that is what abusers do--create situations where if other people don't cave to them there's tension or difficulty, something they can complain about. This is a perfect example. If Rome refuses the invitation, he's insulted the ex and he and his parents can be offended. If he accepts and goes, but doesn't shake hands, he's insulted the ex. Same result.

When he gets there, the ante may be upped and Rome could be asked to do something else he doesn't want to do--eat with them, look at old pictures, something weird. It's a slippery slope and all of it involves doing things Rome doesn't want to do.

As for the girls, I think it's unlikely that things will remain civil for long no matter what happens. We already know what kind of person the ex is. It's very rare for such people to change. The best you can do is minimize contact and politely refuse to be coerced or manipulated.

[asking]

Good for you, Rome! I'm so glad she has you.

[Romefalls19]

I totally agree it will create tension not to shake hands, but that is what abusers do--create situations where if other people don't cave to them there's tension or difficulty, something they can complain about. This is a perfect example. If Rome refuses the invitation, he's insulted the ex and he and his parents can be offended. If he accepts and goes, but doesn't shake hands, he's insulted the ex. Same result.

When he gets there, the ante may be upped and Rome could be asked to do something else he doesn't want to do--eat with them, look at old pictures, something weird. It's a slippery slope and all of it involves doing things Rome doesn't want to do.

As for the girls, I think it's unlikely that things will remain civil for long no matter what happens. We already know what kind of person the ex is. It's very rare for such people to change. The best you can do is minimize contact and politely refuse to be coerced or manipulated.

What I think we would do is be as polite as possible in declining the invite claiming it may be to early for a meeting but perhaps in the future.

And I agree with being trying to force people into uncomfortable situations and I believe that's what would happen. The last thing I would want to happen is to hear about their past you know? I'm fine with them having a past, I'm beyond that because everyone has one but I wouldn't want to hear about it. I forget what movie it was, but it happened in the movie and it would just be awkward(oh Meet The Parents!)

As for changing, he has been to rehab 7-8 times, so to think he would change simply doesn't seem likely.

[asking]

You sound like you've got his number. :)
I agree: polite, polite, polite.

[talaniman]

Sometimes in life we have to set aside our own personal feelings, to the greater good of family. It's the man who sets the tone by his actions, and demeanor, and also in your case to let this guy know his ex is yours, and you will support her.

Shaking hands, eye to eye, is the ultimate sign of man, and how we convey much as to what kind of man we are. Friends, or enemy, doesn't matter.

Please rethink your position, as I think it important to make your stance know visibly in front of all, and let this fellow know, your cool and he better be.

That's what a handshake, and a look in the eye, among men is about.

Just think on it, and be open-minded. As your actions, small though they may seem, can go farther than words, and honestly, you must take the higher ground here, as its more than just you involved.

I'm old school, and one thing I have learned is never prejudge any situation before you have checked things out, but be prepared for anything.

He may not have changed, but you won't know until you meet him, and if he extends his hand.............You take it.

[asking]

If Rome does ever shake his hand, yeah, I agree, that's the way to do it. :)

But going to the guy's house is still likely to get weird and lead to trouble, because the reality of a man-to-man meeting won't play out the way it does in the movies. The scenario talaniman has painted is just the kind of stereotypical "proper" response that abusers exploit.

It's extremely unlikely the ex has changed, especially given that he invited Rome over in this fashion. I think a straight ahead guy who understood the gravity of what he had done would not have put Rome in this awkward position by making a clumsy and excessive overture. He could have taken a much more low key approach to meeting and showing respect for Rome and this relationship. In my view, that's already not happening... The ex has immediately shown his true colors by testing Rome's boundaries.

[talaniman]

I see where your coming from, but
The exes request is not unusual, its even understandable, and will happen sometime, or other. I would certainly be as prepared as possible for anything.

Whether he has changed is irrelevant, as that's something no one can answer, as is whether he will exploit or manipulate, the situation. That's something you need to see, and make a decision about, when, and if, it comes to that.

You cannot be abused or exploited by any one, unless you let them in the first place, and a handshake is a concession of nothing.

I wonder what Rome g/f thinks about all of this??

To see reality requires an open mind, with no prejudice.

[Romefalls19]

I see both points of view, and my girl thinks it's a bad idea because everything is fresh for him as he has just found out a lot of information and was telling his daughters on his visit day at rehab about how he "hates" Rome and then how "mommy broke up the family by dating someone else." After speaking with family and talking about it together we've decided against meeting this coming weekend and will wait for him to come to terms with it as he told his mom last week he's still in love with her and wants her back.

Thanks for the replies though, and when we do meet a firm handshake will be what he receives as I will be the bigger person and take the high road!

[talaniman]

Wise decision, given the extra background. This is really her call.

He doesn't sound to ready.

[asking]

You cannot be abused or exploited by any one, unless you let them

Talaniman, That really is not true, and it's important, so I have to argue. In some cases, people's weak desire to get along leads them to "let" someone abuse them. But the whole point of abuse is that trying to avoid it leads to escalation and worse punishment.

There are many forms of abuse that don't require that someone do anything even as innocent as try to get along. Think of Sophie's Choice, where Sophie is asked to choose between her two children. If she doesn't choose, both will be killed. By choosing she becomes complicit in the death of one of her own children. Either way, she is hurt and her children are hurt. Abusers do things like that all that time--short of killing people usually-- and the victim hasn't "let" it happen out of some weakness.

My ex punished me for standing up for myself by hurting our children (or friends or even people I didn't know well)--not usually physically, but by humiliating them or making them feel rejected or inadequate, or by pitting the kids against one another when they were too young to recognize his tactics. I didn't agree to this and I had no way to stop him. If I didn't let him punish me, he punished others. And it isn't only women with children who are subject to this kind of thing. Any third party will do--a friend, a relative, a stranger in the street, a pet. The tactic is that if you don't submit to humiliation X, then a person or pet will be hurt on your behalf. T, please don't assume that good behavior or even bravery and self respect are a shield against abuse.

One last thing. Abuse is a pattern of behavior intended to control someone. In my opinion, a man (or woman) can get angry and yell or throw a vase across the room, or engage in manipulation, and it may not be very pretty, but it isn't abuse unless it's part of a pattern of intimidation and control directed at a specific person.

[talaniman]

I feel your pain, but don't mistake my advice of being open minded, and non-judgmental, as saying bend over, and let yourself be abused.

Quite the contrary, and given the facts, he is still abusing anyone he can, only the courts, and the law can deal with him, as teaching hate to children is abuse.

So where I understand what your saying, I can't in good consciouses advise someone to do what I thought was wrong. Going into any situation with a confrontational attitude, can bring no good to a potentially explosive situation, and should be avoided.

Given the facts, he would have to be a lot better behaved than he has shown to be around my kids, even if he is a parent. That's what his g/f is thinking I am sure. That's why I asked what Romes g/f thought, for more clarity.

Thanks ASKING, for listening, and don't think for a minute, I am saying your wrong, because I do know from experience what abuse does, I have intervened to many times, not to understand.

It goes way beyond just a handshake.

[wikedjuggalo]

Rome your doing right by respecting your fiancee's wishes. I believe also that when/if you meet it is someone public and open. I do not know if I could honestly look him in the eyes with respect. Do not need to go into details as how we ended that abusive situation but as a child who witnessed this happen in front of me I will never be able to respect anyone who does such acts of violence. But I know how to put on a fake smile.

Tal is right though.

That behavior of telling the children such things is unacceptable. Things like that might cause issues down the road being feed lies like that. Watch out for that if you notice it down the road.

Good luck with your situation and I think not meeting him will be best at this point until you can meet somewhere open and attempt at being civil. Going to his place might be too uneasy.

[talaniman]

Let him go through the courts, see what they say.

[Romefalls19]

That was my main issue with the whole situation. The fact that I would be placed into a situation where if things go badly I have no out because I am in their house. Meeting in a neutral place would have been better but he would not hear that, he wanted it on his terms. That was another reason why I thought it would be more confrontational than a peaceful meeting.

Tal is right about the abuse to the children and teaching them to hate is abuse. We are looking to get full custody and supervised visits for him just a matter of the court system but we are documenting everything they come home saying each time they see him

Wiked, it will be difficult to look him in the eyes and shake his hand but I will swallow the difficult pill for the sake of the children and making things go smoothly when we do finally meet which won't be for awhile until he can come to terms with knowing that his ex has moved on and is not coming back

[talaniman]

I will swallow the difficult pill for the sake of the children

That's good thinking, as we never know who is watching what we do, and how it will influence them. I have said many times what others do is not important, what you do is.