[aqua@home]

I have two questions at the moment. Feel free to answer either or add some of your own similar contradictions. These aren't necessarily my opinion, but something to create thought.

1. How can someone believe that you can burn in hell, but not believe in resurection? Just exactly what would be burning?
2. One of the commandments are "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images" but people continue to wear crucifixes and such. Isn't that like wearing a symbol of a gun or knife around your neck after one had been used to kill someone you care about.
3. How can anyone believe in predestination?

[RickJ]

1. I suppose someone could make the logical argument that your soul goes straight to Hell (or Heaven, or elsewhere) without a "resurrection".

2. This is about the intent, not the letter of the law. Here's a decent explanation/addressing of this issue:
http://cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/image.htm

3. If you are speaking of the extreme Christian definition that God "decides" who is "saved", then I can't help with it, except to say that this is one of the many things people choose to believe that is not a part of the Historic Christian faith.

[Starman]

I have two questions at the moment. Feel free to answer either or add some of your own similar contradictions.


1. How can someone believe that you can burn in hell, but not believe in resurection? Just exactly what would be burning?

There is definitely a contradiction involved for a person who claims that he believes in both since condemnation to hell is thought to take place immediately after a person dies and the sentencing is believed to be eternal. Yet the Bible does speak of a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. If indeed the decision about our eternal fate is made at our death then a ressurectiuon for the sake of judgement would be redundant. Furthermore, if the dead are already in heaven, they would need no resurrection at all. Another contradiction.

BTW

Why burn someone for eternity in the first place?

Jesus' Teaching on Hell by Samuel G. Dawson

[aqua@home]

Thank you Starman, I guess in entirely depends on what we believe. Like the entire "hell" thing. The last point you have is good too. Where do people think you go immediately after death? When are you judged?

"Why burn someone for eternity in the first place?"

LOL... Good question! I don't see any point myself. As said before, I believe hell to be a place that people have somewhat created themselves. Knowing they could have done better?

[Starman]

Another contradiction that arises from the burning in hell forever scenario is
How bliissful can heaven be for those in heaven who know that at the very moment that they are in bliss their son, mother, sister, brother, daughter, or some other loved person is undergoing unimaginable physical agony with absolutely no hope of compasssion.

[aqua@home]

Good point Starman. Wish I had some answers.:)

[magprob]

Could "hell" be the complete removal of GOD, Christ and the Holy Spirit from the place one is now residing. Imagine if GOD decided to pull his protective presence from this planet right this very moment. Whoa! Would we be having one hell of a time! With the freedom of choice to accept GOD or not, comes the ultimate repercussions of that choice. Spend eternity with or without GOD. Does anyone really believe in the red, horned creature poking the lost souls with a pitchfork? "In my fathers mansion there are many rooms". I think there are probably a few rooms where GOD may never visit also.:eek:

[Starman]

Did Adam make an informed decision when he sinned?

Origin of Hell Doctrine
The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment

BTW
God's original plan for paradise did not include tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanic erruptions and asteroid/cometary impacts.

[aqua@home]

WOW Magpro... that was great! I think you have really hit the nail on the head. Thanks for that great insight. I think you are exactly right. A life without God or the Holy Ghost. Thanks:D

[magprob]

WOW Magpro...that was great! I think you have really hit the nail on the head. Thanks for that great insight. I think you are exactly right. A life without God or the Holy Ghost. Thanks:D

Ok, I'll agree that the short version is too simple. Here is the long of it:
The rise of orthodox religion alone is evidence of how events and there interpretations can be progressively exaggerated, symbolically mis-interpreted and above all used for darker purposes. So let us examine the facts and only the facts which are these: Everything in the Universe is Spirit and is therefore life. There is nothing in existence in the Universe that is not Spirit or therefore life including all animal, mineral and vegetable Beings. Even a rock is life and therefore Spirit. There are no exceptions. In the beginning all Spirit, and therefore life came forth from The Source, The First Cause, often known simply as "God". All Spirit and therefore life is an expression of The Source, existing in the infinite Mind of The Source, through which The Source "experiences", thereby constantly in a state of expansion. Expansion is therefore good, contraction is not good, and this is why we must always on a personal level expand our own individual experience by only accepting expansive thoughts. Now here is the important truth. Everything in the Universe, all Spirit and therefore life is in a constant state of evolution. As Spirit evolves by the process of perfection, It progressively increases in vibration and as it does so migrates to the Energy level of the Universe that corresponds to that vibration. This process continues until the vibration approaches the vibration of The Source, and the potential of re-union with The Source is reached. Of course Spirit is never apart from The Source. All Spirit, including humans is an individuated Energy field within the Supreme Energy field, conscious, intelligent Energy of The Source. On Earth we currently match the vibration of Earth exactly, thereby enabling us to co-exist with and on Earth. Of course humans and life generally has a wide range of vibrational characteristics; but all within the general vibratory sphere of Earth. The more perfect and therefore highly evolved a human or any other Being is, the higher will be Its vibration relative to Earth, while still existing within the same spectrum of vibration. By now you might be asking what this has to do with the original post. Well now I can tell you. Just as humans Spiritually evolve, so too does Earth. The only difference being that of "time" as it exists within the physical Universe. The physical life cycle of a human is generally measured in tens of years. For a planet it is billions of years. The fact is; Earth is now in the process of evolving to the next Energy level, sometimes known as the "4th density", better known as the Astral, and in so doing is following the same evolutionary path as a human, and animal or anything else. Earth is nearing the end of its "physical" experience and is in the process of evolving or "graduating" to the next phase of Its evolution back to The Source. But it is important to stress that "the end" might be anything from next decade to the next millenniumor beyond; it is all relative to earth time. As this process occurs, the vibration of Earth will progressively increase. As this happens life on Earth has a lower vibration will no longer be able to withstand the progressively increasing vibrations and will "pass-on" to the next Energy levels by shedding its physical shell. Eventually, there will be no organic life left on the shell of the Earth, and Earth will become a "lifeless rock" like many other,older planets in our solar system. The "body" of Earth will remain, just as the body of anything that has "passed on" remains for a time, but the "Earth planetary Spirit" will have graduated or evolved. This of course is not the end of Earth any more than it is the end of a human upon "passing-on". It simply means that, like humans, Earth will continue to live in the higher spheres of vibration, in all its pristine glory as created by The Source, unaffected by the destruction man has wrought upon the Earth. Earth will be freed from its physical shackles just as humans and all life is freed sooner or later. This process is taking place now, and cannot be stopped. Nothing can prevent evolution being a natural characteristic of everything in the Universe without exception. The big question then is how long will this process take? How muchtime do we have left on Earth? Is the year 2012 significant? The answer is I do not know and no one on the Earth plane really knows. There are numerous circumstantial and anecdotal evidence obtained for example by channelling inner Beings. But channelling can never be relied upon because it is difficult to know precisely who is being channelled and what they really know. There is metaphysical evidence in that remote viewers claim not be able to "view" beyond the year 2010. And then of course there is the famous end of the Mayan calendar in 2012, which in itself is misunderstood by most people. All 2012 signifies in absolute terms is that the winter solstice, December 21, 2012 is the end of the 13 baktun cycle Mayanlong-count calendar, that was constructed around 2300 years ago.The Mayan 13-baktun cycle is around 5125 years in length. So what can we conclude from this? We can conclude that this is the end of the Mayan 13-baktun long-count calendar, not necessarily the end of the world. The question is; why did the calendar abruptly end at that date? The Mayan calendar itself is an extra-ordinary work of supreme accuracy as a calendar from these ancient peoples, in as much that from 3113 BCE to 2012 it has never been incorrect, but it does not necessarily mean that they are privy to the date of the "end ofthe world". But what of the empirical, observable evidence? There is no question that there are numerous events occurring at this time; including but not limited to increased volcanic and seismic activity, extreme weather conditions, and very strange electro-magnetic effects. For example, a time setting that worked for heating something in your microwave for months, suddenly does not work. You place your food in the microwave oven, set it to the same time, and the food comes out still cold. And there are countless other such observations. Whole eco-systems are dying off in the oceans and elsewhere. And so the evidence continues. However; at the same time we have the highest activity of the Sun for many thousands of years. We have human-produced global warming. We know that the climate goes in cycles of temperature, resulting inmini-ice ages and periods of warmth. There is even evidence that the magnetic poles invert from time to time, possibly due to movements in the iron-rich magma at the Earths core. And above all we must not overlook the wanton destruction wrought upon the Earth by man in the name of material greed disguised as "progress". It is not possible to damage Earth so badly, poisoning and destroying the eco-system, raping natural deposits and with such a terrible disregard for life generally, and not expect to reap the result by the immutable Universal Law of Cause and Effect. But the fact is, on the absolute question, we just do not know when the physical world will come to an end for organic life and for us persoally. And the most important moral to come out of this is that neither does not matter! We cannot avert the inevitable. It is impossible. There is no point at all in worrying about an imagined future based on hearsay,conspiracy and "new-age" theories. We must always therefore live in the Now. We are here on Earth for one reason only for the most part, and that is to learn, experience and evolve. Every moment of every day should therefore be spent with positive thoughts and actions that are consistent with our own individual evolution. We cannot prevent the inevitable, but we can control our own individual destiny and evolution. We therefore must focus on that while helping others to do the same to the extent appropriate and possible. But here is the vitally important thing: we chose to be here on Earth because Earth is the ideal environment in which to evolve by facing and prevailing physical challenges. On Earth we are on an accelerated learning and evolution path which is excellent. In the Astral worlds it is much more difficult to make progress because everyone exists on the same "plane" and therefore there is no interaction with other people that can challenge us. There is no physical environment to overcome. We do not know when the physical world will end but we do know this: we should make the most of the time we have here because it is a valuable, God-given opportunity to evolve. If we fail to take that opportunity, and if the physical Earth does come to an end soon, it will be much more difficult to evolve from the Astral, and a major opportunity to evolve to greater, and more glorious spheres, beyond the comprehension of man would have been wasted. The most likely event in 2012 is not the end of the physical world as we know it; but the end of this era of mankind, an era of material greed, avarice and destruction, to give way to a much more Spiritually enlightened or awakened mankind, Who will at last enact out one of the most ancient of all prophecies "The Kingdom of Heaven on Earth", an Earth of higher vibration, respect for all life, and Unconditional Love. But again; we do not know; no one does, and we must prepare for all eventualities while living in the Now. Live every single day as if it is your last, and use those God-given powers of creation to the maximum possible effect. We are here as joyful creators of our own destiny; make the most of it. So, you ask about hell? If you are not walking in the spirit of creation... or separated from, you are in hell!
Adrian

[juliana--]

Answers
1-I haven't ever heard such a thing. Of course, everyone has beliefs that are true for him or her. But I think resurrection will be present and people will have their skins as they have in the world, if they burn.
2-I haven't heard also this but that is very interesting for their believers
3-At last, I came to point to say something.Because at least I know
"predestination" a little:) There has been many contradictions about
"predestination". It is the point where many people lost their belief. It is very tragic.Because of that, there is statement, "If you want to prevent your belief, dont deal with predestination very much". I will explain My belief, maybe ıt can be informative for you: In my belief, Allah knows everything that the words in your heart, the emotions to someone, or the time of earthquake.Conseption of Predestination starts here.For example; in our age age, scientists are able to say absolute time of solar eclipse.Does their knowing this absolute time prevent the event of solar eclipse? This is the approach of modern religiousmen of Muslims; Allah knows everything with his endless knowladge, so, there is predestination, but that doesn't mean people haven't got volition...

You have got really beautiful questions... Have a nice day!!

[aqua@home]

I see what you are saying about the predestination point of things. I guess I wasn't real clear on what my definition of predestination is. I agree with what you are saying but my meaning was different.

My cousin belongs to a church where they believe in predestination. Meaning: Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Abel. They believe that if you are from Cain's seed then you get a one way ticket to hell. If you are of Abel's seed, you get a free ride to heaven.

I have many problems with this idea. First if this is true, what was the purpose of the flood? I am under the impression it was to cleanse the earth of all bad. Therefore after the flood, which was obviously after Adam and Eve, all the bad would have been gone, so nothing would be left from Cain. (After I said this to her, her husband has cut off our communication.) Second this takes away all free will and any point to it. Again, my cousin explains this by saying that it is a bad spirit that entered her dad's body to make him cheat and drink, etc. Therefore he is not responsible for this. Ridiculous!

I hope that is a little more clear.

Thank you for the compliment juliana.

[juliana--]

I see now, aqua.I understood predestination as in dictionary meaning.
I have also heard such a thing that you mention. But I didn't know there is
A belief like that in christianity.I don't know how the Bible mentions about the flood but my knowledge,from the Qouran, 'the flood was not on all over the world.Nouh was sent to aregion(some believes a place in middle asia).As you know, peoples in this region didn't believe to Nouh and his tellings approximately during 1000 years.(May be duration is diifferent from your knowledge).After that, th flood event was happened as a punishment. So the flood was a punishment to people who are in this region, not to people who are in the continent of America, for examaple.If the flood was on all over the world, İt would be injustice to other people, Because there weren't communication tools like we have in our day.
And another point, I know Adam's children, as Kabil and Habil, The bad and The good. I don't have absolute knowledge about this issue. But It is interesting, according to your writing.If one from the seed of cain, marries with one the seed of Abel (Possible) Their children can be good and can be bad. I don't believe people are good or bad since their born. Of course, all people have some good and bad tempers from their creation, in their nature. In fact, the thing that carry to heaven, cope with our bad in our inside. No one is angel, all people have fault.
The better awards will be given the person who managed the bad tempers, althoughhe has more bad tempers than other...
Thanks for you talked about this subject

[aqua@home]

You are welcome juliana. Thank you for your input.

[31pumpkin]

I looked @ this post a couple of times & scratched my head. I think I understand what you are asking now in your 1st question.

When one dies in Christ, that person is judged immediately @ The Judgment Seat of Christ.
There is Hell for the condemned but I don't think those in Heaven get to gaze upon it, at least not for too long. In this hell the soul would not burn up (it would be unquenchable) just as the fire did not consume the burning bush. This Hell represents torment of some kind. At the resurrection, the souls will again be judged. They will see that there was space for their name in the Book of Life but their name isn't in it. They will see what could have been(torment again) Then they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire(the 2nd death) eternally, with Satan & his angels, whatever they look like.

As far as wearing crosses & having mother Mary statues & such: A person is praying to the person the statue represents, & not worshiping the statue.
Crosses are a representation of the Faith. I have a fancy reversible onyx/turquoise/silver necklace, but I don't like too much of that because I'm always reminded that Christ is not on the cross, by my aunt!

I never really heard of predestination. I'm sure there are a couple of passages in the Bible that just describe the literal meaning of the plans God had for Creation. That the outcomes are inevitable. It must be a word that theologians might use.

Also, the Cain or Abel seed is void, moot, zero if you are a Christian. Jesus is the only Jew we inherited the promise from. We were grafted in like branches in the inheritance.

[earthpages]

1. How can someone believe that you can burn in hell, but not believe in resurection? Just exactly what would be burning?
2. One of the commandments are "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images" but people continue to wear crucifixes and such. Isn't that like wearing a symbol of a gun or knife around your neck after one had been used to kill someone you care about.
3. How can anyone believe in predestination?

1. I believe hell is the absence of God. It's not a burning nor even a place but a state of being. Not a good one!

2. I don't think so because Jesus won a victory over evil by being obedient to God's will, even unto death. It's a sign of victory and hope, not of defeat or desolation. Granted, I think it should be treated respectfully.

3. There are some passages in the Bible that some have used to support this view, especially some Protestants.

Sorry if I'm repeating things others might have said. I don't have time to read all the threads... :o