[milliec]

HI!

After have read quite a few entries on different topics here, I decided that we could all benefit a debate about responsibility- ONE of the important keys to healthy relationships.
I decided to open it today, after one of Wildcat's inputs, where she assumed relationships concerning one of her answers, which, as far as I can see, was misunderstood.

I won't add more-i 'd like to read your inputs.

Bye,
Millie:)

[fredg]

Hi,
I am not really sure what your question is, or your comment. I am guessing at this point, that you mean assuming responsibility for a relationship is one of the key elements in a good, healthy relationship?
If that's the case, I agree completely. Assuming responsibility in a relationship means one is responsible for his/her actions; i.e. treating the other with respect, love, caring, and being able to compromise in different situations (the word "compromise" is used a lot on Dr. Phil), and is one of my favorite words.
Being responsible also means not doing anything you know will upset your partner; knowingly anyway.

[milliec]

It's not a question and not exactly a comment - it's something which affects our lives in every aspect, and I feel that its not given enough consideration.I hoped people who have reflected on it, would share their thoughts so that others, who never stopped to think about it, might reflect on it too. In this way, they might change their attitude and reactions in different life situations.
Millie

[Hypatia]

I have preached on this topic a few times. Most humans are not responsible creatures. They are never taught to be mindful of their actions. When a person is mindful of their actions, it creates a chain of mindfulness. The mindful ideal is: Before we act we think, before we speak we think, while we think we take note of the right thing in that doing and living our interpretation of the right thing shall direct our thinking. It is a cycle of connected experience. If we are to ever propel ourselves from this current state of existence we must begin to be mindful in every second and teach everyone else to be mindful. When the world is mindful of their actions they will automatically assume responsibility of their every action. There will be no seperation of association from the person experiencing/doing the action and action itself.
Humans tend to try to pass the blame and live by disassociation. They find elaborate ways to distance themselves from their actions.
No offence to christians but they will be my example.
The christian is "born into sin" and must be saved to go to heaven. Therefore they are born into a world of disassociation from birth. They are born unconnected to what is perceived as good and must connect themselves via baptismal ritual to forge that connection to be saved from hell. They are raised to live according to scripture and whatever sect laws they are born to whether it is catholic, baptist, etc. The way a christian passes the blame is when they commit a "sin" or basicly when they dont do the right think according to their churches, families, Gods etc standards, they say it was influenced by satan or another person, etc. They repent and pray for forgiveness and automaticly they are forgiven. Never once are they truly held accountable or responsible for their actions. There is a major difference in owning up to your actions, correcting them and making restitution for them and admiting them. Doing 20 hail marys is not righting a wrong. It is the ecclesiastical pacification of an unmindful act.
We as humans must acknowledge that we are but mere infants in the grand scheme of things. We are still slight barbarians. Until we teach mindfulness as we do speaking, moving, any other basic human knowledge, we will be forced to witness the lack of responsible behavior.
How can we expect others to be responsible when they arent even taught how to be responsible? And those who are taught are taught only a percentage of what they need to really know.

Hypatia

[milliec]

We as humans must acknowledge that we are but mere infants in the grand scheme of things.

Hi Hypatia,
Your line is the exact reason for the lines I use as my signature here, but they have another reason as well:
To remind me, when I address people here, that I LACK A LOT OF INFORMATION when I answer them. This is for me to be cautious with what I say. And another reason:i hope th ese lines will make them take my words "with a grain of salt"
Since I'm a Jew living in a Jewish land, I'm sorry to admit that I don't hold myself as a person who knows enough about a christians' frame of mind, but I can discuss a little the relationship we, Jews are SUPPOSED to have with responsibility.
We have one day a year, the om Kippur, when we pray, and ask God to forgive our sins. They relate only to sins performed to God not to other persons - one has to ask for forgiveness the person he wronged.
I like this, since it makes one think about it, and do something about it.
Since I'm a secular Jew, I don't know if orthodox Jew practice it. Seculars don't - they say something general.
But I didn't intend it only from a religious matter, though I understand perfectly what you say.
I wished to make people THINK about it, put it where it should be.
Here, on the board, I read a lot of inputs where I could see that this issue never comes to their mind:when a problem is presented,when an advice is being given, and people they choose to follow someone's advice and not necessarily like the consequences.
(Many situations brought to the forum occur because of someone's irresponsibility while the other party assumes too much of it, being responsible both of them)
I wish to thank you for your input, which was, like all your other inputs, written with a lot of thought .
I'd like to add that to my great sorrow, I can't say that responsibility is evident in my country, in spite of the traditions which ought to have been inspired by our religion.
Millie

[fredg]

Hi,
Advice is great, but is up to the receiver to use it or not.
"I wished to make people THINK about it, put it where it should be."
Your quote above is a noble gesture, and really worthwhile. But, the fact is, just wanting someone to think about different things doesn't mean it's going to happen.
Most people think about things that are "pressing now", or in other words, what is affecting them now, such as taxes, death, family problems, personal problems, whatever.
The most "listened to" and "really heard" opinions are those that someone asked for. We hear what we want to hear, and listen to opinons when we asked someone for them. Those who constantly offer opinions to others, without being asked, aren't really concerned for them; they are mostly concerned with themselves.
I think you started a very good thread, and maybe some others will "jump in".
There are many traditions and morals in America that are changing; it's not just in other parts of the World. We have to keep those traditions alive that we see as "good", and the only way to do that is to practice them ourselves.

[s_cianci]

Concerning responsibility, I noticed that the person who started this thread is from Israel. I really can't vouch for Israel but here in the U.S. our society has unfortunately done much to discourage responsibility. We've adapted attitudes that blame everything on external circumstances beyond one's control. The kid who misbehaves in class has "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder" (ADHD for short) and is plied with medication and preferential treatment rather than subjected to corrective action for his misbehavior and forced to accept the consequences of his actions. The woman who is constantly verbally abusive to her family and coworkers is depressed, bipolar or PMS-ing. It's always some disease or hormones that take the blame, never the people themselves. When a person is indicted for a crime and is clearly guilty, what approach does the defense attorney take? Tries to find some kind of disease or condition to blame it on, thereby expecting the judge and jury to have mercy. The "XYY syndrome" has become a famous scapegoat in this regard. If not for an organic disease, then we try to use socioeconomic circumstances as an excuse, such as poverty, single-parent homes, "falling in with the wrong crowd", etc. Now Hypatia made an interesting allusion to Christianity which, while mostly correct, overlooked one crucial element ; namely that God holds people accountable for their sins. Anyone who denies or fails to understand this is not a true Christian. It is true that we are all born into sin. In that regard it's true that we sort of can't help but to be evil and are at Satan's mercy. However that doesn't let us off the hook in God's eyes. God has provided a plan for the redemption of his elect which includes some ceremonial observances such as baptism and holy communion along with the more fundamental blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ, who as God incarnate took upon himself the penalty for the sins of the elect, thereby giving them salvation through grace. Those not of the elect, however, are destined for hell for all eternity, the circumstances of their birth in the original sin of Adam as imputed to all mankind notwithstanding. In fact, it is the inherent evilness of our hearts that makes us blame something or someone else for our wrongdoings. Just read the account of the first sins in Genesis 3. It began with the serpent deceiving Eve, telling her in effect that, despite God's warning, she won't die if she eats the forbidden fruit but will become like God, that is to say greater than what she was initially. She then eats the fruit and indeed doesn't drop dead instantly a la Snow White so then she gives it to Adam who also eats it. Thus entered the human race into sin and disobedience. Now when God confronts Adam and Eve, in that order, what is their response? They each try to shift the blame to someone else! Adam blames Eve and also, indirectly, God himself: "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree and I did eat" [emphasis mine]. God then confronts Eve who blames the serpent: "The serpent beguiled me and I did eat." Now, what is God's response? Does he let Adam off the hook and only punish Eve and the serpent? Does he only punish the serpent? No, he punishes all three! The only significant thing in God's response is that he doesn't even bother confronting the serpent. He first punishes the serpent, then Eve, then finally Adam. In a sense this is the reverse order of their degree of guilt, whereas Adam is the most guilty, followed by Eve with the serpent bearing the least amount of guilt. Ultimately, however, the degree of guilt isn't what's important but rather the mere acts of deception and disobedience, rebellion against God's authority. This innate desire for rebellion trickles down to rebellion against all authority (parents, teachers, government, etc.) followed by an attempt to blame it on something or someone else. So to address the issue of responsibility it is in a sad state in our human existence unfortunately.